The French government issued a decree Tuesday banning the term “steak” on the label of vegetarian products, saying it was reserved for meat alone.
What a strange thing to be pedantic about
Meat industry lobbyists + corruption = stupid shit
Oh we’re good at this. In the whole EU it’s not allowed to print ‘milk’ or ‘cheese’ on something that doesn’t contain actual animal’s milk. Want to sell soy milk? Ok but don’t call it that way…
Except for coconut milk, because reasons.
Yea there are some exceptions for traditional products https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dec/2010/791/oj
Appeal to tradition fallacy
It’s weird, since “milk” in English has included plant milk longer than the taxonomic definition of a “mammal” has existed.
We’re not allowed to call part of the night sky, the Milky Way any more.
It actually is allowed for German “Scheuermilch” (“scouring cream”, which is a cleaning detergent, literal translation: “scrubbing milk”).
The law only addresses agricultural products but yeah there are exceptions for products that were traditional before the law was passed
Oh hell. I’ve been drinking Scheuermilch! I thought it was a bit crunchy
At least, your teeth or what’s left of them is pretty white.
And we had this minister for transport Scheuer…
But his name doesn’t come from Scheuermilch, it’s rather an abbreviation of “bescheuert” - bonkers.
Germany has a whole line of not milks, almost chicken, like chicken, thun visch and i can almost be certain i saw mjolk and moloko somehwere. I always chuckle a bit when i see it.
Not to mention Vozzarella
Smells a little fishy, I assume
More than a little…
I understand what you were talking about until you got past like chicken lol
I can tell you a little about how Germany does this and I think the rest of the EU & France should be similar. There is a government body defining what specific foods are and if your food doesn’t match that, you can’t name it like the food in question. And that does make sense - butter has to be made from milk and not some palm oil mixed together by shady businesses and milk has to come from an animal and can’t be water & white paint.
This does make sense and really protects the consumer. It does - however - really run into problems when dealing with those vegetarian meat replacements. It would make sense to sell a “vegetarian ham”, but ham has an exact, legal definition and part of that definition is that ham has to contain meat.
So cocoa butter, peanut butter, and other nut butters are out.
It’s dumb. It’s not about protecting consumers, it’s about protecting corporate interests.
Cocoa and peanut butter got grandfathered in. If they were to be introduced to the EU market today you’d see them called cocoa fat and peanut creme.
Appeal to tradition fallacy
I find it helpful to have the thing being imitated as part of the name, but not the full name. It makes for an easy way to know what the taste and texture should be and how it can be used in cooking. My kid developed a dairy allergy recently and vegan butter in particular is so easy to substitute in old favorite recipes without changing the flavor much or cooking method. As for meat imitations, a “vegetarian steak” (or ham) label conveys a lot about the texture, moisture, saltiness, and cooking techniques you can expect to use while a generic name such as “plant protein block” leaves you much more clueless as to what the texture and cooking method is meant to be for that item. I don’t think it should be legal to sell plant substitutes as only “steak “ or “butter”, but calling it “plant steak” or “plant butter” is way more straightforward and easy to fit on a label than a lengthy description of “plant patty with a fibrous, chewy texture and savory flavor resembling steak.”
while a generic name such as “plant protein block”
“vegan grill patty”. German actually had a word specifically for this kind of stuff for ages, goes back to Max Bircher. The man had some sense and didn’t try to call it “Gemüsefrikadelle”.
And that does make sense - butter has to be made from milk
cries in coal butter
A milk is what I mix with my cereal, pour in my coffee, use in a pancake mixture and so on. I can’t see any logic behind limiting this to animal products other than a political agenda.
butter has to be made from milk and not some palm oil mixed together by shady businesses and milk has to come from an animal and can’t be water & white paint.
No it doesn’t. I used plant butter and plant milk in all my recipes and it was fine.
Sorry you are saying you can’t call something that is not cheese ‘cheese’? Preposterous.
Well to be precise you’re not allowed to label any agricultural product cheese that wasn’t made of milk.
There are only some exceptions for traditional things like Leberkäse
Cheese is what comes from under my girlfriend’s foreskin and I am OUTRAGED that bad-faith farmers are selling rotten cow’s milk under the name cheese.
/uj words have multiple definitions, genius
It’s almost as if words should mean something. Now do milk vs juice.
It isn’t
You don’t want to be tricked into eating something else than you intended. Even ignoring the whole value of eating meat argument, there is an allergy problem in play
And, I’ve noticed that vegetarian products are being hidden more and more insidiously over the years. It’s intentionally misleading and potentially harmful
No one ever bought vegan steak thinking it was meat. And calling it a vegan steak perfectly explains what kind of product you’re looking at.
That’s just false. I’ve seen multiple people including myself and my so make that mistake multiple times.
Maybe it’s packaged more clearly where you’re from, but over here the difference is quite subtle
You buy steak without caring from what animal but get triggered if it’s not meat?
I’m gonna devil’s advocate for two seconds here and say I’ve bought vegan chicken schnitzel and it said chicken on it.
And then I’m gonna stop devil’s advocating and say it was delicious. Throw some sweet soy sauce and peri peri spice on that bad boy and you got a gourmet feast.
Nice assumption. I can tell a pork steak from eg. a beef one by looking at it. If it’s sold as steak and doesn’t say something like marinated, I am safe to assume that there is no list of ingredients to check. This is true in Australia and Europe supermarkets. Just a fucking piece of meat. 3 seconds decision while you move on with your shopping.
A meatless product made to look like a beef steak can easily look like a beef steak. So no, until yesterday you didn’t need a microscope to ‘care’ what animal it was you were buying. Now I need to make sure that it’s actual fucking meat. That’s where making mislabelling illegal does help.
I’d love to see the reaction of the vegans if someone was sneaking in meat or eggs in products labelled as vegan.
You’re only assuming that those minced meat is beef when you pick it. It’s pretty dumb running through the world with closed eyes and demanding everyone to counteract your shortcoming. I’m sure youre able to read.
I’d love to see the reaction of the vegans if someone was sneaking in meat or eggs in products labelled as vegan.
Lol what’s wrong with your mind do you really think vegetables somehow hurt you?
No I love vegetables, it’s just that I like to choose and I hate processed foods. Most important I like to know what I am buying and stop customer shaming, I shouldn’t need to read the fine print because some scanmers are trying to sell shit for something else.
Good follow-up though with your question about vegetables, I go through the veggie aisle and grab a head of broccoli. Am I allowed to assume it’s a fucking broccoli or do I need to read the fine print too? How would vegetarians/vegans (or anyone really) feel if the head of broccoli was plunged in pig fat and sold just as broccoli. And everyone on lemmy was just ‘get over it it’s still broccoli, it’s a word you don’t own it’ and some other bullshit about shortcomings.
The European union has some pretty strong regulations around food and mislabelling. Sorry doesn’t work that way, you can’t blame a customer for not reading the fine printing.
And yet you can’t tell apart a vegan steak from a dead animal. Sure thing mate.
I can tell a pork steak from eg. a beef one by looking at it.
apparently you can’t though
Would love to see some pictures if you could share. Maybe you just don’t pay much attention to labels?
But that’s the actual problem there. For decades you could buy a steak at a supermarket without having to worry about it being some processed shit sold as s steak.
Stop blaming it on the customer. If it’s even remotely confusing, it shouldn’t be allowed, and France is taking steps in the right direction.
France, Italy, Spain and other countries in that area have a strong food identity and culture, mislabelling is taken seriously. It comes from decades of scammers trying to piggyback on mozzarella, champagne, parmigiano, hamon. Someone trying to sell crap and pretend it’s something else is nothing new, and it’s just taken care as it should.
Your plant matter protein block is in aisle 5, just don’t call it a steak as it is confusing customers that give that word a very specific meaning and have for a very long time. Fucking great opportunity to come up with a new name and make it into the dictionary next year.
But then the problem isn’t the name at all right? You just want to hate for hates sake. If the name was the problem, it would be because you read labels and get mistaken. But you don’t read labels at all.
And if this law was about helping consumers, they would simply mandate a standardized vegan label on vegan products that imitate other products. This would help both vegans and sensitive little cristals like you.
And, I’ve noticed that vegetarian products are being hidden more and more insidiously over the years
You’re salty that mum hid peas in your dino nuggies
It’s even dumber than you think:
Producers elsewhere in the European Union can continue to sell vegetarian food with meat names in France.
It’s so incredibly dumb it’s honestly amazing.
Wtf. Had to reread the article like 3 times to figure out the mental gymnastics
So if consumers don’t understand the labels, then how is banning only French producers from using them in France going to help? They still have to read the labels from other areas in Europe…do they think the French companies will make more money if consumers aren’t confused? So they’re trying to stifle imported goods? That’s the only thing I can think of lol i can’t make it make sense
There’s no “thinking” happening. Only the convergence of two opposite things:
- French politicians wanted to please the meat industry;
- The EU free market has a strictly defined set of rules that essentially prevents member states from banning “EU-legal” stuff from being sold in their country (as I understand it – because in practice it’s a very complex topic and the EU is not nearly as overbearing with its laws as “euroskeptics” tend to portray them, like when during COVID borders were completely closed despite far-right parties having spouted for years that Freedom of Movement meant the end of territorial sovereignty and what-have-you).
Now the politicians got their headlines so they’re happy, and in practice almost nothing changes for the consumer so they’re mostly happy. Ah and the veggie producers get fucked in the process, but the politicians don’t care and the consumers don’t know or care.
It’s basically the dumb version of the current agricultural protests (the French farmers are pissed, among other things, that their products have to compete with “common EU market” products which were made using lots of cheap pesticides that would be illegal to use in France. Now to be fair it’s not a 1-to-1 comparison because pesticide usage has profound health effects on local populations but you get the idea).
Either way to avoid unfair treatment of local producers, the government has to either deregulate the industry to match the lowest common EU denominator, or to successfully lobby the EU to raise the requirements everywhere. Or I guess just treat producers unfairly and hope they’ll be able to compete anyway.
Thanks for the explanation!
Blocking this at European level requires a completely different path. I wouldn’t be surprised if France tried to do so next, and it would probably get the support of other neighbouring countries that have similar values when it comes to food.
Not sure what’s all the push against this from this thread though. Is it not okay to call a spade a spade?
What if we take the opposite approach and look at someone marketing a processed food based on tripe as as vegan friendly corn chunks?
I don’t think “vegetarian steak” is a confusing term, especially not intentionally so. It aims to recreate some of the consistency/taste of steak. I also never personally witnessed them packaged in a way that was intentionally confusing: they are in a different isle/stand and use completely different containers (actual meat is in black polystyrene with transparent plastic, vegetarian alternatives are packaged in green polystyrene with a colorful label).
Now maybe my experience isn’t fully representative, but I’d like proof of deceitful marketing happening before legislating this stuff. Right now what this looks like is culture war bullshit against a made-up problem.
It’s not a made up problem, bit you are right it might slip I to the culture was bullshit department soon.
You not thinking that this is confusing is irrelevant, there are more people put there including oldies that don’t bring their fucking glasses at the supermarket with them.
Point is that countries like France take seriously food mislabelling (in my opinion rightly so), this is nothing different that fake mozzarella, parmigiana or champagne. There are ways to prevent confusing customers, this law is one of them.
Have your marketing department go crazy with a catchy new name for your amazing plant based creation.
there are more people put there including oldies that don’t bring their fucking glasses at the supermarket with them.
And you think Granny is going to have an easier time understanding “NEW! CHIA SEED STÖRNK” than a steak in a green package?
I’m going to assume this is good faith.
So lets talk about something different for a minute. Many people enjoy the taste of beer yes? but also alcohol is undeniably detramental to take as a drug. So people make stuff that is not beer, in the sense that it is not an alcoholic beverage, but is very similar. They call these products alcohol free beer. That’s pretty descriptive right? it’s going to taste like beer but it’s not alcoholic.
So steak say, obviously it means a certain anatomical piece of the desecrated corpse of a cow. But also it’s an experience, eating a steak. So if someone says “plant based steak” they’re describing that experience. They’re saying “hey this will have the texture and taste of something analogous to a lump of muscle from a corpse, but it’s made of plants” with the name.
I don’t see why this should be controversial, it’s just shorthand. What would you suggest they call it?
They call these products alcohol free beer.
Alcohol free beer is beer that was brewed as usual, then the alcohol got removed. Which is a very different thing than making a tart soda and calling it beer.
It’s the same thing as “lactose-free milk” vs. “almond milk”. One is produced by a cow (and an extra enzyme to split the lactose), the other by draining California’s water table.
In fact in Germany one particular type of – colloquially – beer, Malzbier, (alcohol free) is not allowed to be sold as beer because it contains added sugar, which isn’t allowed according to Germany’s definition of beer. Otherwise it’s actually brewed like beer, keeping the temperature such that the yeast doesn’t produce alcohol.
It’s the same thing as “lactose-free milk” vs. “almond milk”. One is produced by a cow (and an extra enzyme to split the lactose), the other by draining California’s water table.
Nah, you’re wrong. Lactose free milk could come from a goat, a human, or even a coconut. You think milk means cow milk cause you forgot what milk means.
(Also what the fuck do you think cows make milk out of? Pixie dust and genie wishes? Nah. Cows make their milk out of California’s water table and corn that grows from California’s water table.)
LOL, asks for good faith and then go with desecrated corpse of a cow. I’ll bite, ignore the fluff and go straight to the question
What would you suggest they call it?
Don’t fucking care. Your marketing department comes up with something catchy, descriptive and that doesn’t confuse customers. And in this case in France, that doesn’t break the law.
Piggybacking your comment about beer. I make a nice dry and sparkly wine that resembles Champagne but the grapes are not grown in the Champagne region.in fact its not a grape wine at all I use recycled shoe soles. I’d like to call it Champagne in the shops around Europe but if I am not allowed, what would you suggest i call it?
that’s… what it is. meat doesn’t grow on trees, you murder someone and take pieces of their corpse. you can say you think that’s good and fine but you can’t deny that’s what happens.
Sure then lets call the meat substitutes that are the subject of this thread ‘ultra processed foods’, that are being mislabelled for genuine EU agricultural products by astute scammers
as to the rest. If you called it shoe based champagne, and it tasted like champagne and you printed the nutritional information on it why would I care? protected regions are dumb and people that defend them are stupid.
LOL if you say so then we have settled this whole argument. Go ahead and let the France government know.
From other comments it sounds like you might be vegetarian or vegan. Would you like product to be mislabelled and contain products thatbyoubare not okay to eat, just because someone else thinks it doesn’t matter and “vegan product” can be interpreted in many ways and it’s stupid anyway?
How to tell me you’re American without telling me you’re American.
Is it not okay to call a spade a spade?
Not in France. In France you have to invent a confusing new name for spades.
It’s just the standard intersection between domestic and EU law when it comes to food labelling.
E.g. if you want to sell stuff in Germany as beer that isn’t beer according to German law then you can’t brew it in Germany, it has to be imported and thus fall under common market rules.
This is so stupid and a collosal waste of time. Do they really feel people are just so stupid they can’t figure their stuff out for themselves?
Also, and I cant stress this enough, they are just wrong.
Not in France, but as a meat eater I am starting to get annoyed at misleading labelling. Can I eventually figure out that what’s in my hands in the supermarket aisle is some sort of meat substitute? Sure, I’d like not waste my time though and others might be in a rush, distracted or you know mislead.
Have you come up with a great new meat free product? Awesome, find a catchy new namenand market it, you don’t need to piggy bag on steak or bacon that have a pretty specific meaning to consumers.
Also, are you a rabid vegan that hates everything meat related? Why would you want to buy and eat something called bacon?
Edit: also you are correct that this is a colossal waste of time. Customers time. France and other countries with a gastronomic culture like italy take food and food related frauds pretty seriously. And IMO they are right. Want to sell some new experimental shit? Be my guest, as a customer I should be able to opt in, not have to opt out.
You seem to be a rabid meat eater that hates everything vegan related.
Nah just hate the approach. In fact I am all for alternative food, as long as they are labelled properly. I do come from a place that similarly to France, has a strong culture around food and I hate seeing people fucking around and talking about words as ‘metaphores’ and how about you read labels carefully.
As I mentioned elsewhere, vegetarians/vegans have more to lose by mislabelling than anyone else (would anyone like a vegan product that actually contains chicken eggs?)
But yeah, I am a meat eater. I had similar arguments in another platoform a long time ago about GMOs. Me being strongly of the opinion that they can live in a supermarket but clearly labelled, downvoted to oblivion too because fuck the customer they should just learn to read or trust the vendor that what’s in their food is what they want to eat ( whatever their preference might be)
I would like to buy something called bacon because I like bacon? You can like meat and still be vegan. Most vegans are vegan because of animal cruelty and climate impact, not because they hate meat. I can only speak for my country, but here such products are all on the same shelf and are clearly labeled as vegetarian/vegan. It makes sense to call it vegan bacon or vegan steak because it clearly imitates the meat product and I don’t want to have to decipher what it’s supposed to be first.
Then buy bacon. Or go online and try to find some info about what could resemble bacon in your country/area. Don’t see why all fucking people that have been buying bacon expecting to buy bacon now need to sift through other stuff to find, you know, bacon.
Doesn’t really matter the reason why vegans are vegans. You made a choice, deal with it and I am not saying this in a snarky way, we shouldn’t change the meaning orlf word and mislabel food because of your choice and your personal tastes that still lean towards bacon - I can’t blame you for that BTW
I don’t know where you shop, but Vegan shit has its own section here in Canada. For the frozen stuff, it’s in the hippie aisle with the chia seeds and the quinoa.
In my country the tofu and meat imitation products are in their own section, but the vegan vegetables, the vegan potatoes, the vegan bread, the vegan pasta, the vegan sauces, the vegan fruits, the vegan chips, the vegan biscuits, the vegan coffee, and the vegan TV dinners are in the normal places for those things.
Then buy bacon. Or go online and try to find some info about what could resemble bacon in your country/area.
Why are you so set on making it harder for shoppers to know what they’re buying?
I don’t understand why you seem to be so angry about it. I won’t buy “real” bacon because it’s terrible for both climate and pigs.
Nobody is mislabeling food. Vegan bacon is the perfect term for a vegan bacon substitute and nobody ever bought something labeled “vegan bacon” and was then disappointed that it didn’t contain meat. It’s not like manufacturers try to deceive people. The stuff is clearly labeled as vegan and it’s usually even sold from a different shelf.I don’t understand why you seem to be so angry about it. I won’t buy “real” bacon because it’s terrible for both climate and pigs.
I am not that sure that from a climate point of view, my steak that come from the farm down the road (who was raised in the grass the other side of the road) is worse than the avocado coming from Florida.
If you go to the industrial production, in the end there are no difference in the outcome, only in the way you arrive there.
Nobody is mislabeling food. Vegan bacon is the perfect term for a vegan bacon substitute and nobody ever bought something labeled “vegan bacon” and was then disappointed that it didn’t contain meat. It’s not like manufacturers try to deceive people.
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?
The stuff is clearly labeled as vegan and it’s usually even sold from a different shelf.
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of “beyond cabbage” made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label…
I’m just going to drop this here.
Transportation is such a small factor in food production is pretty much negligible. Meat always loses vs plants regarding climate impact.
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?
Yes, that’s all I’m saying. Bacon is Bacon, vegan bacon is vegan bacon.
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of “beyond cabbage” made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label…
If your meat cabbage abomination is labeled correctly and not sold in the vegetable section of the supermarket, sure, go for it. I doubt it would be a successful product, but go for it.
I’m just going to drop this here.
Transportation is such a small factor in food production is pretty much negligible. Meat always loses vs plants regarding climate impact.
Probably, I am not able to read what the picture say (for some reason is too small)
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?Yes, that’s all I’m saying. Bacon is Bacon, vegan bacon is vegan bacon.
Except the word bacon means “meat from the back or sides of a pig, often eaten fried in thin slices” and the word vegan means “a person who does not eat or use any animal products, such as meat, fish, eggs, cheese, or leather” (definitions from the Cambrigde dictionary), so maybe if you don’t want to change the language you need to come up with some other name, which have not this contradiction in itself ( and personally I think it would be better from a marketing point of view)
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of “beyond cabbage” made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label…
If your meat cabbage abomination is labeled correctly and not sold in the vegetable section of the supermarket, sure, go for it. I doubt it would be a successful product, but go for it.
Well, I can say the same about the vegan meat abomination.
It makes sense to call it vegan bacon or vegan steak because it clearly imitates the meat product and I don’t want to have to decipher what it’s supposed to be first.
It makes sense to call it sex because it clearly imitates sex and I don’t want to decipher what “masturbation” means first.
Words have fucking meaning. They need to have for communication to not break down. Don’t get your recipe book in a twist if people like their meaning to stay the same.
Words do have meaning, but that meaning is not set in stone. I’d argue that plant based sausages, schnitzel, burgers, steaks, bacon etc. are still just that. It’s more about the form factor than what exactly it’s made of.
It should of course clearly be stated on the package what’s inside.
I don’t see how “Vegan Bacon” might be a problem.You’d argue that in France as a vendor, and you’d go to jail. Other countries will follow soon and I can see France Italy and Spain to push for this as a European law.
Not a problem for you doesn’t mean that it’s okay for all customer of a country or of the eu, it can be misleading.
That’s cause France sucks.
It’s more about the form factor than what exactly it’s made of.
It makes sense to call it a woman because it clearly has a hole and I don’t want to decipher what “fleshlight” means.
EDIT: Oh, du sprichst deutsch. Bratling. Is das denn so schwer.
Fuck off transphobe.
I don’t think you argue in good faith. Also, Bratling is not a good word for many vegan meat substitutes.
Oh I do I’m just being crass. Let me try again:
It makes sense to call it a beer because it comes in a bottle and I don’t want to decipher what “alcoholic soda with artificial flavour” means.
…are there any substitutes that are neither Bratling nor Saitan (which is well-established?). Don’t buy the latter and make the former myself so I wouldn’t know. In my mind substitutes have no place in proper recipes but that’s a personal thing, a Bratling doesn’t try to be meat it just tries, and succeeds, at being a Frikadelle – something that you can put on a bun, or eat cold, or drench in sauce, really it’s astonishing how interchangeable the two are precisely because a good Bratling doesn’t try to imitate a product, but replicate a function.
What is the meaning of steak? Is it enough to kill some animal and write steak on the package? Or do you care which animal it was? If you don’t buy [generic steak] you likely would want to know which animal the flesh is from and it requires another word to describe it. Horse steak is as fine of a descritption as saitan steak.
This https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/steak
And I can tell which animal it was by just looking at it both the look of the meat and the cut. Unless it’s not meat and it’s designed to look like a (usually beef) steak, in which case I might be induced to think it’s a beef steak. Which is the whole point here, France is regulating so this does not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak
Steaks are cut from animals including cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo,[1][2] sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, and deer, as well as various types of fish, especially salmon and large fish such as swordfish, shark, and marlin.
So you can distinct between all these animals flesh but you feel challanged to read “plant based meat”
Oh good lord, you all have the same edgy argument on this thread. Are you gonna tell me that I need to learn how to read next, or that I am an idiot, and that the problem is just me?
Millions of people buy their meat as I just described. They expect to be able to do so moving forward. If youbare used to grab a head of broccoli and move on why do you need someone to start questioning how you chose it, how do you really knownits not cabbage, and really don’t you even read if it’s organic or where it comes from?
Yes in many cases the label can be misleading. A whole country just legislated about it. I’m not french but agree this is the right decision.
I’m all for veganism and vegetarianism. And for plant based products. I also like to fuckong know what I am buying without having to dissect it.
They do have a meaning, yes. And ultraprocessed vegan steaks fulfill the general functions of a steak, so I don’t see what the fuss is all about. There are different kinds of actual meat steaks, and they can’t be used interchangeably. I wouldn’t eat a chicken “steak tartare”, for instance. So differences are allowed as long as the general description matches. And I think we’ll need to agree to disagree, but I have enough imagination to qualify the vegan sewage roll as sausage, because they can be used as substitutes for meat sausages in a meal.
You language prescriptivists are fighting a lost battle anyway. If people call it a steak, it is a steak, the Académie Française be damned. Languages aren’t decided centrally. The language’s speakers collectively make it what it is.
Handjobs are sex and you should definitely be including them when your doctor asks if you’ve had any sexual activity recently in your STI risk factors diffusion.
Brigaded by vegans. Would love to see a thread about products labelled as vegan actually containing meat or eggs but only listed in the fine print. Their mouths would he froting about the actual.meaning of the word vegan and the importance of not mislabelling profucts
The word “meat” describes physical objects that fulfill a specific function, for which you can find substitutes. Sausage is an oblong object made of a casing filled with protein. Steak designates a (honestly delicious) slab of protein.
Dictionaries haven’t caught up with modern uses of terms like “steak” or “sausage”, but it doesn’t really matter, because they don’t decide language centrally. Their role is to document how language is at a given point in time. And the consensus for the majority is that a steak is meat, but that is not set in stone. Things are changing. A growing proportion of people has started calling vegan sausage vegan sausage. Dictionaries might eventually follow the majority, if that majority ever materializes.
Vegan foods mean, at the very least, that a food contains no animal products. Eggs don’t fit the bill, by any stretch of imagination. It’s a straight-up lie, like saying an American Camembert is an AOP Camembert de Normandie. I don’t think you made a strong case here.
And look, I haven’t adopted all the newspeak myself. I don’t like the word “vegan steak”, because it strays too far from my definition of what steak is. Fake sausage and milk work for me. But my point is that my own stance doesn’t matter. It’s what the majority thinks that matters.
Do you buy [generic animal steak] or do you buy cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo, sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, or deer steak?
People sometimes act like that the description of steak or milk (cow, human, goat, cat) is unambiguous. I have never seen plant based food which does not declare it like [plant based steak]
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based. If you don’t care which animal parts you buy as long as “meat” or “steak” is any death animal I think you are in the minority.
Do you buy [generic animal steak] or do you buy cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo, sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, or deer steak?
In Italy (and as far as I remember even in France) they are divided into different aisles, so in a certain aisle you will find only meat from a certain animal.
People sometimes act like that the description of steak or milk (cow, human, goat, cat) is unambiguous. I have never seen plant based food which does not declare it like [plant based steak]
It is not the point, I also never see a plant based food not declared, but I think it is right to not be able to call “milk” what you get from a almond.
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based. If you don’t care which animal parts you buy as long as “meat” or “steak” is any death animal I think you are in the minority.
Or maybe we just think that words has a meaning.
Or maybe we just think that words has a meaning.
I guess you have a strong opinion on calling a bond between two man or two woman marriage?
Not particularly. For what I think is the marriage is, I simply don’t care and, oddly enough, the law about the civil marriage cite the words “husband” and “wife” only once, the other times it use the word “consorts” that here is neutral, and in the context it simply mean “both of you”. So even the law seem to don’t care (mostly) about the sex of the people getting married.
So it was always the way that same sex marriage was accepted and nobody had to fight against people who claim “but the bible …” “It is between a man a women and nothing else” “next you want to marriage you dog”, right? There where never people who fought to change the system because the system and the laws have always been perfect?
So it was always the way that same sex marriage was accepted and nobody had to fight against people who claim “but the bible …” “It is between a man a women and nothing else” “next you want to marriage you dog”, right?
That’s not what I said. I just stated what I think and what the law say in Italy. I am not responsible for what other people think.
There where never people who fought to change the system because the system and the laws have always been perfect?
If we are talking about the marriage, I can agree with you, in fact in Italy we have other forms of unions (which don’t make any difference between the sexes) to substitute the marriage which for the State are like a marriage. Note that even if conceptually they are the same thing, we call with different names exactly because in Italy the marriage is way too often identified with the religious one, which for the law is void (ie if you are only married relligiously, which means the 3 law article I cited are not read, then for the State you are not married). We have not tried to change the meaning of a specific word.
Mentioned in another thread. I buy meat cuts the same way I buy a head of broccoli, pass by the aisle look at it and grab it. And so does the fucking majority of population that are busy and would like to continue to do so and not need to read the fine printing
I can identify a beef steak from pork, lamb, chicken and horse by the look of the meat and by the cut. I do so routinely and so do everyone that shops for meat.
The same way I can tell a head of broccoli from say cauliflower.
A meat replacement beef stake looks exactly like a beef steak. If it also says steak on the packaging people can just grab it and go. Definition of mislabelling.
Now, I’ve already covered this in other comments so if you are about to say this is my fucking problem and that I should learn to read. No, this is every customer’s problem. People are busy, elderly people might not bring their glasses to the supermarket and more in general the EU is on the side of the customer so no, company that sell something should label it clearly particularly if it could be deceiving.
If you are about to give me the poor meat eaters, treated unwell consider that vegetarians and vegans have more to lose. What if the tables turn and dodgy vendors are allowed to label their product vegan friendly even tho6they might not be.
If it also says steak on the packaging people can just grab it and go. Definition of mislabelling.
I have never seen just [Steak] on any package. You have proven that you know words by writingen them. I reckon you can read them too.
Would it be fine for you to start selling dog steak just labeld as steak? They take great care and pride to label it correctly https://www.elwooddogmeat.com/ They make sure you know what you get because it is a premium product. If you just buy storebrand animal meat and don’t care about who it was I can’t help you.
I have never seen just [Steak] on any package. You have proven that you know words by writingen them. I reckon you can read them too.
I don’t know where you buy your food, but here I can clearly see meat labeled as “steak” in my supermarket.
Ah yes you have proven that I can read therefore it is okay to mislabel products across a whole country and potentially mislead other people. Checkmate.
Or how about we protect customers and try not to mislabel products?
What’s with the dog meat? I believe it’s illegal everywhere in Europe isn’t it? Otherwise, just meat so yeah technically a steak.
Meat eaters are being opressed the same way as christians. This has to stop! Normal people can’t be mislead to make better dietary choices, they need their god given ability to excercise their rights in being a huge burden on the environment!
Mate, you might think your highly processed piece of crap is a better dietary choice. Fine I have no problem with that.
What I am asking is not being misled into buying it as a steak.
And if it’s so superior, why do you need to call it a steak, use some imagination and come up with a name on par with its superiority.
The word steak is not your property. I can do what I want with it and you don’t need to understand. Im sorry it hurts you so much.
True, but it has a meaning.
Sure you can do what you want. Go ahead and try to sell your processed crap as steak in france and let’s see how it goes.
Firstly I am a non meat eater confused when I am seeing steaks labelled as meat, which I expect to be describing nourishing food in general (https://www.etymonline.com/word/meat). Similarly I am confused seeing dairy milk labelled as just milk when I seek certain saps and other reagents for my alchemy.
Secondly you obviously misunderstand what “rabid vegans” want or their goals. I am one, and I quite enjoy the taste of meat. I did not stop eating it because it was not pleasurable, I stopped eating it because I have worked in the processes that lead to it being neatly packaged in supermarkets and there is a rather alarming amount of suffering involved. So frankly I am very much interested in things that lack that suffering but taste the same, I would sacrifice my left hand to a dark god if it would lead to convincing crustacean flesh alternatives.
I love meat and think that this rule is stupid. The metaphors are used to describe what taste and texture you might expect from a product, which makes sense especially for people who just switched and want to emulate the taste pallet they are used to.
Except that France regulates their food industry very strictly and rightly so. What you think it’s a metaphor, it’s actually a word with a specific meaning.
Try to emulate Champagne and sell it as a Champagne in europe, and then try to convince the judge that you just intended that as a metaphore and wanted to emulate the taste pallet.
Champagne is a funny example because colloquially people will often use that term to describe any sparkling wine. And as said before - I disagree that this specific regulation is very useful to anyone, except maybe producers. Most people understand what coconut milk is.
The only funny thing is that you call shitty wine champagne COLLOQUIALLY with your mates and miss the point that this whole thread is about food being sold to customers and actually labelled wrong, something that is taken pretty seriously in the EU, and rightly so.
Want to continue talking about champagne in your after work plans with Debbie from the second floor? Be out guest but you can’t sell something that is not champagne as such.
And BTW this is a good thing for all of us consumers of the union. Particularly vegans and vegetarians, the main target audience of these replacement products. You wouldn’t want their products accidentally mislabelled and chicken eggs or animal meat ending in products labelled as vegan?
The only funny thing is that you call shitty wine champagne
You seem to be a calm and reasonable person.
Maybe instead of screaming you could actually try to explain what is a problem of labeling a vegan product as vegan steak. For customer it’s rather clear that it’s vegan and he also gets a general idea of taste and texture that the producer was at least going for. So what exact problem does arrive from having a vegan steak?
You wouldn’t want their products accidentally mislabelled and chicken eggs or animal meat ending in products labelled as vegan?
If you planing on producing meat that tastes like banana, I don’t see any problem to lable it as meat banana.
Maybe instead of screaming you could actually try to explain what is a problem of labeling a vegan product as vegan steak
Confusing and misrepresenting. Steak is meat.
For customer it’s rather clear that it’s vegan Except that in some cases it’s not.
So what exact problem does arrive from having a vegan steak? Again confusing and misrepresenting for customers. The reason why France legislated about this BTW, let’s not pretend it’s hard to grasp
if you planing on producing meat that tastes like banana, I don’t see any problem to lable it as meat banana.
No I am talking about a processed vegan food that is called ‘vegan something’ but that it turns out, has chicken eggs and maybe even meat in the list of ingredients. Just because someone might argue around the meaning of ‘vegan’ the way we are doing for steak, and legislation in some countriesight not protect the meaning of vegan in food names.
Just to be very clear. Nothing against vegans or vegan food. I am for clarity when it comes to customers, particularly in the food industry.
“Oh no! An animal wasn’t killed to make this steak! Well, this was a waste of time and money.”
No beefsteak tomatoes for you!
The politicians are trying to take away our steak!!1!
Makes sense. It’s pretty weird and confusing when they sell them as meat products. Sometimes it feels like it’s purposefully misleading.
It’s going to have a big green V on it, i’m not sure how your confused by it and they usually in a different section anyway. I don’t think I’ve ever seen meat and non meat products sold in the same aisle.
I don’t know if that’s a mandated thing where you live but some products don’t seem to have it on the top of the packaging (could have it on backside) and when they have it it is pretty small and in the corner, with the name of the product (the misleading part) and the picture taking up most space. And I’ve seen meat and non-meat products next to each other when it’s ready to eat stuff, sometimes sausages.
It seems so unnecessary. It’s like they’re embarrassed of the product or something.
So you’re saying a picture of the food was front and centre, you could see exactly what it looked like, and you still managed to buy the wrong thing by accident?
Maybe the fact that you can’t tell the products apart is a sign that there’s some sort of similarity or common denominator between them. If only we had some sort of linguistic function to indicate that two objects are similar.
Photo of it might be of a very generic burger or a sausage. Some even had the word burger or sausage as the biggest print in the box, much bigger than anything else.
Maybe the fact that you can’t tell the products apart is a sign that there’s some sort of similarity or common denominator between them. If only we had some sort of linguistic function to indicate that two objects are similar.
It’s not just a personal thing. But obviously considering the reaction and expectation of the people were of a meat product but they got an imitation product. It just seems shady.
Not to mention in reality the products aren’t very similar but the box and the branding can mislead to think you it was the thing you were hoping to buy. Just seems weird.
“Oh no! I was expecting an animal to have been kept in a cage, but instead this is an identical cruelty-free sausage!”
If it quacks like a duck it’s a duck. If it sauces like a sausage it’s a sausage.
The consumer expectation would typically be of a meat product and they’re misleading you that that’s what you were buying instead of highlighting what sort of product it actually is. It just seems anti-consumer and like they’re embarrassed of the actual product, to not highlight the fact it’s an imitation product.
Seems unnecessary. If these are good products you’d think they’d stand on their own.
Y tho. Why do you care that it’s meat? You know I might be in the minority here, but the reason I eat food is cause it’s nutritious and tastes good. Not because it’s meat.
ITT: Vegans with a chip on their shoulder demanding that stuff they want to buy be labelled the same as stuff they don’t want to buy.
Next up: People demanding that meat be labelled cauliflower to fight fire with fire. I mean it’s special meat engineered to have the texture and taste of cauliflower, why shouldn’t it be labelled cauliflower?
I have never seen a plant based product labeled the same as a animal product. What I see is is [Beef steak] or [Plant based Steak made from…]
Vegan products have a clear label on them and they want you to know that it plant based because people buy it for that reason, be it to avoid animal cruelty, the destruction of the environment or their own health.
Vegan products have a clear label on them
And why shouldn’t meat products have a clear label?
Yes, I think I advocated here alone two to three times for that and I will stay by your side if you do demand that.
We could make it easier for all with a “animal product” label but at the moment it is only the animal industry which is lobbying for restrictive product names.
If you don’t want to then legislate for a label like the (V)egan label and put it on all products made from animals, I would still support you.
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based.
That kind of label already exists: It resembles the shape of the letters “Steak” so closely one might even mistake it for the word.
Why, pray tell, are you insistent on diluting the clarity of that label? Is it so aesthetically pleasing to you that you just cannot help yourself but enjoy it even though you don’t want to have to do anything with meat?
Well, I guess it shows that some people learn only shapes instead of reading.
Still unclear who was killed, maybe there are some more shapes around? They indicate what Animal it was, you know there is more than one?
Now imagine if you will, we could use that space where it says “pig” and replace it with “saitan” for example? Mind blown, if you put 2 or more of these cryptic runes together we can transport more information.
I don’t care much for it, it is for those who want to stop supporting the destruction of the planet and the murdering of billions of sentient beings for their pleasure. It makes it easier for them if they don’t have to change too much.
Now imagine if you will, we could use that space where it says “pig” and replace it with “saitan” for example? Mind blown,
Now imagine if you will, we could use that space where it says “organic” and replace it with “pork”, for example? “pork cauliflower”. Makes perfect sense.
I don’t care much for it, it is for those who want to stop supporting the destruction of the planet and the murdering of billions of sentient beings
No. It is for people who want to proclaim superior morality but are too lazy to switch their shopping habits from “steak” to “soy patty”. If y’all are so virtuous that should really not be an issue for you.
Who do you think acts more superior, those who kill others for pleasure and destroy the ground, water and air by doing so, or those who don’t need that? Lion on top of the food chain, thats what you are, right?
Good point. I have a fair and unbiased solution to the problem that will help everyone:
Steak made from plants and fungus must be labelled as “meat-free steak”.
Steak made from cultured cells must be labelled “cultured steak”.
Steak made from dead animals must be labelled “corpse steak”.
There we go. Now everyone knows what they’re buying. Thanks for your brilliant suggestion.
I don’t think people want products to be labeled as meat products when they’re not meat products that would be confusing.
But what’s the problem in a vegetarian product in the style of a steak? Like maybe you don’t want it but who cares?
So you’re saying that mislabelling would be confusing, but if it affects me but not you you don’t care.
You know that’s not what I’m saying.
No one is going to mistake a vegetarian sausage for the real thing simply because the vegetarian stuff is labeled “vegetarian” in giant letters so people who will looking for vegetarian stuff can see it.
I’m actually torn on sausage but this thread is more specifically about steak and escalope. How do you even take saitan, do a butterfly cut, and beat it until it’s flat, what you’d end up wouldn’t be an escalope but soy paste.
So you admit that it’s a completely pointless argument and yet you continue the completely pointless argument.
Who cares what they label things. It’s not some weird conspiracy to get people to buy vegetarian products. It is literally the least important thing that’s currently happening, and you’re all behaving as if somehow it’s some great conspiracy.
Who cares what they label things.
Me. I care. You care. Because we both are consumers and if something’s on the label, then that thing should be in there. I don’t want to buy beer and discover it’s coke, or buy coke and discover it’s beer. When I buy steak I want meat to be in there, When I buy saitan I expect soy in there, and not soylent green.
It’s not some weird conspiracy to get people to buy vegetarian products.
…and noone ever claimed so? At least not in this thread as far as I remember. Might’ve missed something. But while I’m at it, two points of critique to the meat substitute industry:
- Do your homework and come up with good marketing terms that don’t piggy-back on words deeply associated with meat: In my mind we don’t even need to begin to talk about sausages because “roll” is a perfectly fine word for such a product. “Saitan rolls for grilling”: Why even start to bring meat associations into it.
- Sell your shit at sane markups. Many more people would buy meat substitutes if companies were willing to set prices for maximum sales instead of maximum ROI: Vegans are a (kinda) captive market, many are quite affluent, if you sell saitan for 30 bucks a kg they’re going to buy it because they want it even though it costs like 1.50 to produce. It’s cheaper to produce than mea sot it should be cheaper in the stores. Something something Zizek, companies are exploiting that phenomenon for profit while getting celebrated as ethical.
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The problem is precisely that nobody has an interest in mislabeling animal product alternatives, but these policies create the impression that the problem they claim to solve is real. This is nothing but useless bureaucracy and a PR stunt for the animal product industry, disguised as consumer protection.
The problem is precisely that nobody has an interest in mislabeling animal product alternatives
You haven’t read the comments, have you. Tons and tons of purported reasoning of why saitan should be called steak.
It had to be labeled meat cauliflower and seems to be reasonable to call it that way. But wait till you hear about coconut milk or even worse meat-cheese (Leberkäs/Fleischkäse - traditional german sausage with no cheese what so ever).
It’s a stupid comment anyway because no one would ever label cauliflower as anything but cauliflower.
Parents to make their children eat it?