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Anthony Sabatini, who is running for Congress in Florida's 11th district, reportedly made the remarks during June's Florida Teenage Republicans Youth Summit.
My mom and grandma are both public school teachers. I had a few good public school teachers throughout my education. One of my good friends is a public school teacher. I never said people working in public schools were evil. I said it is immoral to trap students there against their will.
Charter schools are hell for educators and students don’t benefit. The reason why conservatives push for charter schools is because then they don’t have to worry about the separation of church and state. Basically they want public schools, but with Christian nationalism. This means they’d strip schools of scientific rigor, tell us Teachers to teach that God made the heavens and earth a couple thousand years ago, people rode dinosaurs like cowboys, and we’re all either going to heaven or hell. I have parents who push for this already. Their agenda is more of the same, anti intellectual, Christian nationalism.
Charter schools are hell for educators and students don’t benefit.
Charter schools are not a monolithic entity, I’m sure some are terrible- but I’ve also seen some that seem to be good, obviously I’ve never been enrolled in one but at least in the public school district I went to it was terrible for a lot of teachers- and harmful to my education and mental health.
The reason why conservatives push for charter schools is because then they don’t have to worry about the separation of church and state.
There are a lot of non-religious charter schools, I am not a fan of religious schools- but it is not my place to impose my beliefs on other people’s children.
This means they’d strip schools of scientific rigor, tell us Teachers to teach that God made the heavens and earth a couple thousand years ago, people rode dinosaurs like cowboys, and we’re all either going to heaven or hell.
Do you think people should be able to homeschool or pay for their children to go to a private school?
Charter schools are not a monolithic entity, I’m sure some are terrible- but I’ve also seen some that seem to be good, obviously I’ve never been enrolled in one but at least in the public school district I went to it was terrible for a lot of teachers- and harmful to my education and mental health.
No reason to speculate. Charter schools have been studied extensively:
It makes no fucking difference if the school is charter or not unless you’re a Black or Latino kid in a big city. At least from the perspective of test scores.
This suggests that there’s really no advantage to charter schools unless you’re using them as a means to limit class sizes in big cities (which is where that measured effect of improved scores for Black and Latino students comes from). In other words, 30+ years of studying charter schools has once again proved that the biggest factor in improving test scores is smaller class sizes. Every other factor from curriculum to “good teachers VS bad teachers” to teaching styles to how many hours kids spend in classrooms is all nothing in comparison.
Having said that, charter schools have some major statistical advantages over regular (funded via socialism) schools:
They don’t have to take all students. In any given year a regular school has to adjust the number of teachers and classes based on enrollment. If there was a single-year baby boom (e.g. a big storm came through ~6 years ago) they’ll have to hire teachers and somehow “find room” for kids they weren’t sized to handle. This makes the logistics of a charter school much simpler than a regular one and has an enormous impact on measurements of “efficiency”.
It’s far too easy for charter schools to force out kids they don’t like (e.g. underperforming or special needs).
Charter schools don’t have to follow the same curriculum as regular schools. This means they can “teach to the test” far more than regular schools can. This gives them a huge statistical advantage over regular schools that have to give kids a more well-rounded education.
…but forget all that for a moment: The fact that even after 30+ years of evolution charter schools still aren’t outperforming regular schools indicates that they’re a waste of time. If we actually wanted to improve education in this country there’s a few simple changes we can make that would have vastly more impact than charter schools:
Reduce class sizes. The fewer students per teacher the better they do!
Start school later for older children. High school kids should not be waking up at 5AM to go to school! Study after study has shown this has a great big negative impact on academics!
That’s it! Do those two things and the science says our kids will be better educated. Everything else is just shifting the deck chairs around or just wishful thinking (“let’s make all teachers great teachers!”).
BTW: If we want teaching (as a profession) to improve over time we should probably start by paying them more and making it a more stable career. You know, to keep them around instead of having them get so dissatisfied that the majority leave the profession after a few years. Other things like not passing idiotic “Don’t say Gay” laws would also help in this regards.
If you went to a charter school they’re just gonna let you go wandering around willy nilly?
I’ve been a teacher in various countries around the world. Some, mainly third world countries, do just let kids go do whatever if they don’t want to learn. These kids usually end up pumping gas, working a cash register, or some other low skill low wage job.
If you went to a charter school they’re just gonna let you go wandering around willy nilly?
No of course not. I think both public and charter schools should allow it however.
These kids usually end up pumping gas, working a cash register, or some other low skill low wage job.
It’s not my place or your place to tell other people what’s best for them. They should have the right to choose to do what they want. There is nothing demeaning about working in a low skill or low wage job obviously it is a bad situation if the wage is too low- but it isn’t always. One of the jobs I’ve had that I enjoyed the most was delivery, my other jobs have been “skilled”.
They should have the right to choose to do what they want.
Wait you are telling me that, at the age of 7 you were ready to make decisions that affect your entire life? If sitting at a desk for 10 years and learning basic life skills for free is abuse and gave you PTSD… As you said… Just how would you feel sitting at a gas station for 40 years, inhaling carcinogen fumes, and living at a very basic level as a result of the decisions you made as a young child? You basically had a bad experience, and I understand. I hated school as well. It’s actually why I became a teacher. I don’t want to be an abusive dick like my teachers were. But what you are saying is that a young child, who has no basic life skills, should just be able to leave school because it sucks. But the repercussions are that the rest of their life might suck and they’re not gonna blame themselves. They’re going to blame circumstances. In all honesty, aquiring an education is a privilege, and it is a recent development in society that we universally get a basic education. If it seemed like a horrible experience, well it’s behind you. All I am saying is you should have a bit of gratitude for the education you received. If not that, gratitude for the education your mother received, so that she could teach you to read. You seem very intelligent, but you’d not be able to use your intelligence if you didn’t have basic literacy… And consider if your mother, herself, was illiterate and couldn’t teach you. Wouldn’t school be such a gift?
Wait you are telling me that, at the age of 7 you were ready to make decisions that affect your entire life?
I think anyone at any age should be able to enroll in basic education. I think the basics of what is taught in schools and truly necessary could be taught to most people in under 4 years.
gave you PTSD
I didn’t say PTSD.
learning basic life skills
That is a tiny fraction of what public education is.
Just how would you feel sitting at a gas station for 40 years
You mean getting paid and providing a service of value? I’d much prefer it.
You basically had a bad experience
I personally would’ve been much better off not engaging in schooling at all. Everything that has been useful to me I either was taught by my parents, or the internet, or easily could have been in the 13 years I wasted in school.
But what you are saying is that a young child, who has no basic life skills, should just be able to leave school because it sucks.
Yes.
But the repercussions are that the rest of their life might suck and they’re not gonna blame themselves.
You don’t know. It is easy to point out harms to changing the current system while overlooking the harms in the current system and the missed opportunities. Maybe they would more aptly teach themselves- as I did. Or, maybe they would learn from an apprenticeship. Or, maybe they wanted to be a hair stylist, they learn to be a hair stylist, they become a hair stylist- and they are happy. A lot of the advocacy for mandatory education comes from projecting what you want, or what might be best for you, onto others- imo.
aquiring an education is a privilege
It is a privilege if it is voluntary, its an obligation if its forced.
If it seemed like a horrible experience, well it’s behind you.
But it still harms millions of others.
If not that, gratitude for the education your mother received, so that she could teach you to read.
My parents were also taught to read by their parents.
All I am saying is you should have a bit of gratitude for the education you received.
The only thing of any value I gained throughout schooling was the diploma.
I think the basics of what is taught in schools and truly necessary could be taught to most people in under 4 years.
Okay. If you have a kid, pull them out of school at 4th grade. They are ready for the world in your eyes.
13 years I wasted in school.
That’s your own fault. Drop out and get your GED at 16.
You mean getting paid and providing a service of value? I’d much prefer it.
Cool. Go to work. Nobody stopping you.
You want to change the system? You need more education. Substantiate your assertions that kids should drop out at 4th grade and go to work with quantitative research after you get your masters or PHD in early education pedagogy. Otherwise you’re just blowing hot air about the way the world ‘should be’
Okay. If you have a kid, pull them out of school at 4th grade. They are ready for the world in your eyes.
Most people includes adults who would learn it more easily. But I’d say yeah for the top 20% or so of students they’d learn more with free choice. They’d obviously still be minors so still have protections. But, I think an easier way to determine it than age is just letting people test out.
That’s your own fault. Drop out and get your GED at 16.
Illegal in the state I lived in, you had to be 18 to be out of any form of schooling. Furthermore at around that point COVID had started and online school largely amounted to nothing. And again furthermore, 2/13 isn’t that good of a recovery rate.
Cool. Go to work. Nobody stopping you.
I did work starting when I was 14, I would’ve been able to devote more and learn more from it if I weren’t in school.
You need more education.
You can learn outside of formal education. That is the only way I am able to learn anecdotally.
You want to change the system?
Many have already tried see John Taylor Gatto, one of the most decorated public school teachers ever. Or, Ivan Illich, who was more of a idealogue but still proposed good alternatives, some of which have partially been created. Or John Holt, or in some ways Caleb Gattegno. Bertrand Stern, and many more. And, I’m probably not the one best suited to take any of their places, but I can still advocate for change.
It sounds like you are passionate about education reform. It’d be a shame if your passion went to waste. I strongly disagree with the dismantling of public education and replacing it with charter schools. The idea is mostly advanced by people with ulterior motives. You, from what you said, truly suffer from traditional education. I get that. As I said, I hated school also. I learn in a very nontraditional way as well. But, public education is for everyone. It’s not simply a work training facility. Many of my students love school. Quite a few depend on school for daily nutrition. These are a few, among many services provided by our public school system.
Neither of us are going to be able to make fundamental changes. But I am personally providing my students with the best education that I can. Maybe your mom, not your tracher taught you to read. But I’ve personally taught dozens of illiterate kids to read. Not only how to read, but to understand why they read and to even love doing it.
People learn. It’s what we do. I feel like I am just a facilitator in their independent education.
Actually, you’d probably be a great teacher yourself. You understand what a lot of teachers don’t.
I think anyone at any age should be able to enroll in basic education. I think the basics of what is taught in schools and truly necessary could be taught to most people in under 4 years.
So… You think Kindergarten through 4th Grade is all that’s necessary in life?
I don’t know how to tell you this but… if you only got an education up to 4th grade you wouldn’t have the necessary communication skills to write that comment. You also probably wouldn’t have the necessary math skills to pay your bills or understand how interest works (so forget banking) which means you wouldn’t have a cell phone or Internet plan.
It’s not my place or your place to tell other people what’s best for them.
Actually, it is! It is our place to tell people what’s best for them because some things are objectively better and we can back up our positions with science. If you want to disagree with me that’s totally fine. Just know that by taking the opposite position here you’re arguing that it’s not our “place” to tell people things like:
Wash your hands after using the restroom.
Install smoke detectors in your home and replace the batteries when they beep (don’t just disable them).
Mixing chlorine and bleach can kill you.
Don’t drive like a maniac.
Get a science-backed education or you’re going to be useless/a drain on society.
Society has a duty to tell people things like this. Especially children! We have to teach them “what’s best for them” because that’s how society works (“we live in a society”).
When you say things like, “it’s not your place to tell other people what’s best for them” you’re basically making an argument that’s pro-disease at the very least and pro-death at worst.
When a cop pulls you over for driving like a maniac are you going to argue with them, “it’s not your place to tell me how to drive!”?
Progress marches on as we learn more about ourselves and the world. As our collective knowledge grows domains of knowledge become more specialized. So when a body of such specialists agree on something it is then their duty to tell us all “what’s best”.
As a public school teacher, from the bottom of my heart, fuck you!
Also, please follow rule 3 and rule 6.
My mom and grandma are both public school teachers. I had a few good public school teachers throughout my education. One of my good friends is a public school teacher. I never said people working in public schools were evil. I said it is immoral to trap students there against their will.
Charter schools are hell for educators and students don’t benefit. The reason why conservatives push for charter schools is because then they don’t have to worry about the separation of church and state. Basically they want public schools, but with Christian nationalism. This means they’d strip schools of scientific rigor, tell us Teachers to teach that God made the heavens and earth a couple thousand years ago, people rode dinosaurs like cowboys, and we’re all either going to heaven or hell. I have parents who push for this already. Their agenda is more of the same, anti intellectual, Christian nationalism.
Charter schools are not a monolithic entity, I’m sure some are terrible- but I’ve also seen some that seem to be good, obviously I’ve never been enrolled in one but at least in the public school district I went to it was terrible for a lot of teachers- and harmful to my education and mental health.
There are a lot of non-religious charter schools, I am not a fan of religious schools- but it is not my place to impose my beliefs on other people’s children.
Do you think people should be able to homeschool or pay for their children to go to a private school?
No reason to speculate. Charter schools have been studied extensively:
https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20104029/
To summarize the conclusions of the study:
This suggests that there’s really no advantage to charter schools unless you’re using them as a means to limit class sizes in big cities (which is where that measured effect of improved scores for Black and Latino students comes from). In other words, 30+ years of studying charter schools has once again proved that the biggest factor in improving test scores is smaller class sizes. Every other factor from curriculum to “good teachers VS bad teachers” to teaching styles to how many hours kids spend in classrooms is all nothing in comparison.
Having said that, charter schools have some major statistical advantages over regular (funded via socialism) schools:
…but forget all that for a moment: The fact that even after 30+ years of evolution charter schools still aren’t outperforming regular schools indicates that they’re a waste of time. If we actually wanted to improve education in this country there’s a few simple changes we can make that would have vastly more impact than charter schools:
That’s it! Do those two things and the science says our kids will be better educated. Everything else is just shifting the deck chairs around or just wishful thinking (“let’s make all teachers great teachers!”).
BTW: If we want teaching (as a profession) to improve over time we should probably start by paying them more and making it a more stable career. You know, to keep them around instead of having them get so dissatisfied that the majority leave the profession after a few years. Other things like not passing idiotic “Don’t say Gay” laws would also help in this regards.
If you went to a charter school they’re just gonna let you go wandering around willy nilly?
I’ve been a teacher in various countries around the world. Some, mainly third world countries, do just let kids go do whatever if they don’t want to learn. These kids usually end up pumping gas, working a cash register, or some other low skill low wage job.
No of course not. I think both public and charter schools should allow it however.
It’s not my place or your place to tell other people what’s best for them. They should have the right to choose to do what they want. There is nothing demeaning about working in a low skill or low wage job obviously it is a bad situation if the wage is too low- but it isn’t always. One of the jobs I’ve had that I enjoyed the most was delivery, my other jobs have been “skilled”.
Wait you are telling me that, at the age of 7 you were ready to make decisions that affect your entire life? If sitting at a desk for 10 years and learning basic life skills for free is abuse and gave you PTSD… As you said… Just how would you feel sitting at a gas station for 40 years, inhaling carcinogen fumes, and living at a very basic level as a result of the decisions you made as a young child? You basically had a bad experience, and I understand. I hated school as well. It’s actually why I became a teacher. I don’t want to be an abusive dick like my teachers were. But what you are saying is that a young child, who has no basic life skills, should just be able to leave school because it sucks. But the repercussions are that the rest of their life might suck and they’re not gonna blame themselves. They’re going to blame circumstances. In all honesty, aquiring an education is a privilege, and it is a recent development in society that we universally get a basic education. If it seemed like a horrible experience, well it’s behind you. All I am saying is you should have a bit of gratitude for the education you received. If not that, gratitude for the education your mother received, so that she could teach you to read. You seem very intelligent, but you’d not be able to use your intelligence if you didn’t have basic literacy… And consider if your mother, herself, was illiterate and couldn’t teach you. Wouldn’t school be such a gift?
I think anyone at any age should be able to enroll in basic education. I think the basics of what is taught in schools and truly necessary could be taught to most people in under 4 years.
I didn’t say PTSD.
That is a tiny fraction of what public education is.
You mean getting paid and providing a service of value? I’d much prefer it.
I personally would’ve been much better off not engaging in schooling at all. Everything that has been useful to me I either was taught by my parents, or the internet, or easily could have been in the 13 years I wasted in school.
Yes.
You don’t know. It is easy to point out harms to changing the current system while overlooking the harms in the current system and the missed opportunities. Maybe they would more aptly teach themselves- as I did. Or, maybe they would learn from an apprenticeship. Or, maybe they wanted to be a hair stylist, they learn to be a hair stylist, they become a hair stylist- and they are happy. A lot of the advocacy for mandatory education comes from projecting what you want, or what might be best for you, onto others- imo.
It is a privilege if it is voluntary, its an obligation if its forced.
But it still harms millions of others.
My parents were also taught to read by their parents.
The only thing of any value I gained throughout schooling was the diploma.
Okay. If you have a kid, pull them out of school at 4th grade. They are ready for the world in your eyes.
That’s your own fault. Drop out and get your GED at 16.
Cool. Go to work. Nobody stopping you.
You want to change the system? You need more education. Substantiate your assertions that kids should drop out at 4th grade and go to work with quantitative research after you get your masters or PHD in early education pedagogy. Otherwise you’re just blowing hot air about the way the world ‘should be’
Most people includes adults who would learn it more easily. But I’d say yeah for the top 20% or so of students they’d learn more with free choice. They’d obviously still be minors so still have protections. But, I think an easier way to determine it than age is just letting people test out.
Illegal in the state I lived in, you had to be 18 to be out of any form of schooling. Furthermore at around that point COVID had started and online school largely amounted to nothing. And again furthermore, 2/13 isn’t that good of a recovery rate.
I did work starting when I was 14, I would’ve been able to devote more and learn more from it if I weren’t in school.
You can learn outside of formal education. That is the only way I am able to learn anecdotally.
Many have already tried see John Taylor Gatto, one of the most decorated public school teachers ever. Or, Ivan Illich, who was more of a idealogue but still proposed good alternatives, some of which have partially been created. Or John Holt, or in some ways Caleb Gattegno. Bertrand Stern, and many more. And, I’m probably not the one best suited to take any of their places, but I can still advocate for change.
It sounds like you are passionate about education reform. It’d be a shame if your passion went to waste. I strongly disagree with the dismantling of public education and replacing it with charter schools. The idea is mostly advanced by people with ulterior motives. You, from what you said, truly suffer from traditional education. I get that. As I said, I hated school also. I learn in a very nontraditional way as well. But, public education is for everyone. It’s not simply a work training facility. Many of my students love school. Quite a few depend on school for daily nutrition. These are a few, among many services provided by our public school system.
Neither of us are going to be able to make fundamental changes. But I am personally providing my students with the best education that I can. Maybe your mom, not your tracher taught you to read. But I’ve personally taught dozens of illiterate kids to read. Not only how to read, but to understand why they read and to even love doing it.
People learn. It’s what we do. I feel like I am just a facilitator in their independent education.
Actually, you’d probably be a great teacher yourself. You understand what a lot of teachers don’t.
So… You think Kindergarten through 4th Grade is all that’s necessary in life?
I don’t know how to tell you this but… if you only got an education up to 4th grade you wouldn’t have the necessary communication skills to write that comment. You also probably wouldn’t have the necessary math skills to pay your bills or understand how interest works (so forget banking) which means you wouldn’t have a cell phone or Internet plan.
Actually, it is! It is our place to tell people what’s best for them because some things are objectively better and we can back up our positions with science. If you want to disagree with me that’s totally fine. Just know that by taking the opposite position here you’re arguing that it’s not our “place” to tell people things like:
Society has a duty to tell people things like this. Especially children! We have to teach them “what’s best for them” because that’s how society works (“we live in a society”).
When you say things like, “it’s not your place to tell other people what’s best for them” you’re basically making an argument that’s pro-disease at the very least and pro-death at worst.
When a cop pulls you over for driving like a maniac are you going to argue with them, “it’s not your place to tell me how to drive!”?
Progress marches on as we learn more about ourselves and the world. As our collective knowledge grows domains of knowledge become more specialized. So when a body of such specialists agree on something it is then their duty to tell us all “what’s best”.