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I’ve always hated people that said “How can you be moral without religion” It’s concerning if the only thing stopping you from doing bad things is a book from thousands of years ago. I do what I think is right because that’s just who I am. I don’t need some higher power telling me what and what isn’t right.
How does morality determine what is right?
People determine what is right based on their morals. Not everyone agrees on what that means for every situation but there are some widely-accepted ideas for how to make those decisions. By adulthood, it’s generally something you’ll have an intuitive sense for since moral reasoning begins developing early in life. Even if you’re deciding (or being forced) to do immoral things, people tend to be capable of recognizing that what they’re doing is wrong. One problem with religion that is identified in the picture above is that in the case of a conflict between a person’s faith and their morality, religious influence may override their sense of right and wrong which can lead to conflicts, both internal and external. I don’t know if that’s what you’re asking though.
Hopefully that wasn’t too vague of a response, I’m not the most qualified person in the world to explain but there’s no shortage of reading material on the subject. It’s one of those things people have been talking and writing about more or less since the dawn of talking and writing.
How is overriding sense of morality is a problem? Doesn’t your sociocultural background already do that, leading to conflicts?
Based on my experience, people seem to override their religion more than the opposite. I doubt if those mega rich pastors, pedophile priests, extremists, and hate groups actually care about what their religions say. It seems that they just do whatever the fuck they want and do all sort of mental gymnastics to justify their actions and make themselves feel better about it. I’d much prefer if religion actually overrides these people’s morality
You, uh, ever look into the inquisition? Maybe the crusades?
Most wars in human history have been caused by religious distinctions.
Humanity has justified an awful lot of shitty behavior on account of religion
Humanity has justified an awful lot of shitty behavior on account of religion
That’s exactly my point?
If you take an in depth look of those events, there were always inherent political and economical motives. Explicitly saying that you want to assert authority, consolidate power, and acquire more land and wealth by slaughtering bunch of innocent people sounds awful, doesn’t it?
Saying that most wars are caused by religion seems like a stretch, considering conflicts have existed long before human even existed and fights are going to happen anyway. I’m not sure if that’s any worse than invading Iraq for “freedom” or Stalin and Mao killing their people because they were “counter-revolutionaries”
Having to justify actions to themselves and find ways to feel better can be made easier with a tool like religion that they can lean on. It’s not the only way to get there but at that point, they’ve already recognized that what they’re doing is immoral and they want the money, kid-rape, political / social change, etc. more than they want to stay within the bounds of morality. Murder is wrong but if they’ve been told that, according to the all-knowing being in charge who knows best, allowing a certain type of person to live is worse, they have a ready substitute for the “don’t murder” rule to help them pull the trigger.
Doesn’t have to be the big-ticket items like rape and murder though, it could just be someone who makes others’ lives harder unnecessarily. Maybe it’s a shitty boss whose verbal abuse is just acceptable enough to avoid discipline from above or somebody who tosses their fast food trash out the window on the highway. Scummy behavior for sure but they can balance the scales for themselves by feeling bad and talking about it on Sunday morning. It can replace the urge to be less of a shitbag because at least they’re still playing the role of a good worshiper.
To suggest that morality is to doing what is right is to argue that either there is a universal definition of “right” or that, as you suggest, each person decides for themselves. If it’s the latter, then one couldn’t argue that another person has behaved immorally, and therefore therefore is morality even a thing? If it’s the former then one might argue that we all have the same sense of right and wrong from intrinsic human nature, but then it’s a nature vs nurture question, isn’t it?
My view is that it comes from human nature and our ability to empathize with others. We learn it from personal experience which includes influence from the people around us. I don’t like getting punched in the face, I recognize that other people probably don’t like getting punched in the face so under most circumstances, I won’t punch somebody else in the face. Some part of that was probably my parents telling me as a child that punching people in the face isn’t right. You can say the same about theft, malicious lying (with a carve-out for the harmless stuff that eases social interactions) and playing loud music with thumping bass at 3 AM in an apartment complex. I wouldn’t enjoy being subjected to those things so I don’t do those things to others.
The closest thing I think we have to a universal definition (because there are always going to be outliers) is along those lines. If this does not address your questions, please let me know where I’ve missed the mark but I’d like to hear where you believe it comes from as well.
There is a viewpoint which states morality is just as objective as mathematics or science. The idea behind this paradigm is harm. Every living creature with a nervous system can experience harm such as pain, hunger, fear, thirst, sadness, etc. We humans can check both human-initiated intentional harm, which is under our control, and other types of unintentional harm, e.g., environment damage caused by human industrial development.
Kants categoric imperative. There are rules that apply for anyone taking no-power abuse as referential
I’m sorry, no. There are so many problems with Kant’s categorical imperative. It comes from a tradition of trying to impose simplistic rules onto an inherently complex and messy subject. The Categorical Imperative would just cause misery if it were applied universally, which defeats the whole purpose of morality.
Morality isn’t about rules or dictating what people can’t do. It’s about promoting well-being.
There is always a better way. Till there is no more.
The literal exact same way religion does. It makes it up.
I read a quote by an Indian author, Khushwant Singh, “Morality is a matter of money, that’s why poor people have relegion”.
So rich people have moral…?
Makes things even more scummy when you look at religions with tithing or branches emphasizing things like prosperity gospel. People without the money to spare fork it over anyway in the hope that their faith will be rewarded but it never is. Better off buying lottery tickets since even though odds of winning are low, at least they’re higher than zero.
I disagree. Religion is saying what you are doing is right because it comes from your religion.
I think you’re taking an… absolutist view of right-and-wrong, whereas the idea of “right” for religious people is exclusively through the lense of their religion.
Murdering a child to you might be objectively bad, and seeing a religious person do it (or support it) might look like someone doing evil, knowing it’s evil, because they were told to do so. But if their god (or religious leader expressing the will of their god) told them to do it, it is right to do it, and the only right thing to do is what is told (plenty of examples of this playing out in religious texts).
I think the easiest rebuttal to this is that the abstraction level is too high here: “Morality” (as what?) “Religion” (as what?) “Right” (to whom) and “Told” (by whom) are all relying on not having explicit definitions.
Eh, while not wrong, it would have made more sense to say something like ‘Religion is being threatened to do what is right.’
This assumes the religion is moral. The crusades were probably morally wrong (on both sides. There was a lot of reasons for them. But yeah.) but, on the other hand, the church was definitely telling entire nations to go kill for god
I would like to join other posters in welcoming migrants from /r/im14andthisisdeep
From a Christian viewpoint, ethics and faith are not separate but interconnected. Ethics isn’t perceived as doing right in spite of religious beliefs, but because of them. The belief system underscores the significance of individual conscience, insight, and spiritual discernment in making ethical choices. Furthermore, the doctrines and illustrations set by Christ in the New Testament are regarded as the supreme ethical principles, intended to steer adherents in leading a life of love, pardon, and equity. Hence, this standpoint contradicts the notion that religion demands obedience without consideration of what is ethically right.
The statement though “morality is doing what is right” seems a bit of a weak statement. What implies right anyway? I go with what benefits humanity as a whole not what “feels right.”
So when Yahweh dictates to commit genocide…
So when Yahweh dictates to commit genocide…
Christianity interprets the entire Scripture through the perspective of Jesus Christ’s doctrines, which underscore affection, empathy, and mercy. The aggressive narratives in the Old Testament are not perceived as direct instructions for today’s followers, but rather elements of a wider tale to be understood in its historical setting and spiritual allegory.
Furthermore, using terms such as “genocide” for these ancient narratives is historically incongruous. The concept, as we comprehend it now—a premeditated, organized extermination of a racial or cultural collective—did not exist in the same manner during biblical times. The exaggerated language in the biblical recounts of battles and triumphs typically served rhetorical or theological aims rather than outlining ethical conduct.
Moreover, Christianity stresses the importance of the ‘Sacred Tradition,’ the existence and wisdom of the Church over centuries. This Tradition involves an ongoing process of interpretation and discernment, aiming for an understanding of the Scriptures filled with divine wisdom, rather than a mere literal interpretation. This method often results in interpretations that affirm the inherent worth of all human life and the significance of love and tranquillity.
In summary, while these passages are present in the Bible, they are not considered as endorsements for violence in Christianity. Instead, they are interpreted within a framework that encourages peace, fairness, and affection.
If you are going to cherry-pick, actually know and understand what you are trying to reference rather than attempt to be some edge lord.