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British Museum: “what’s a country of origin?”
I came here to say this, BM is the worst.
It’s fun to say this, but at least BM is really able to do their main job and preserve the artifacts.
There’s dozens of cases where the original sites have been looted or destroyed by the origin country’s own leaders.
Storing the artifacts outside of the influence of an area’s internal issues is actually really wise. The BM’s real wrongdoing is not paying anything for the artifacts they’ve took. I argue they’ve done enough good to offset that a little. They’re bad but not the worst.
That’s a lot of words to make the exact same excuses used not only to steal the art in the first place, but to colonise the countries it came from too - that us “civilised” people need to take care of their things because they are too “savage” to do it themselves.
Spoken like a true coloniser.
Fun Fact:
European society decided at one point that eating mummies was a great and healthy idea.
Previously it was quite easy to find mummified remains in Egypt, that’s what a 6,000 year old tradition will do, but the by the time the British Empire went through its Egypt Fever phase they had eaten so many corpses there was a supply shortage.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/
If they’re not going to take care of their shit then they won’t mind is taking it!
They actually paid for a lot of the artifacts. A lot of arguments come from people who don’t realize stolen is hyperbole.
British Museum gets a lot of hate but there are plenty of museums that’s have walked off with others countries treasure. The Pergamon museum in Berlin took literal chunks of ancient cities
Germany is returning stolen artifacts, and even getting criticism for it when it backfires like it happened with the Benin Bronzes (which the Nigerian government gave to the former royal family and are not available to the general public in any country now).
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But the Benin Bronzes were stolen from the royal palace. They weren’t available for the general public before they were stolen. It’s up to the royal family if they should be put up for display since it is their property.
Royalty is an illegitimate concept. Any property they have is an act of theft as well.
True. I’d never be one to argue that BM should get less hate, but I’d also never be one to argue that you shouldn’t ALSO hate on others for doing the same thing…
How about we make them all give it back or make reforms to show them in host countries while the origin country retains ancestral ownership? Kinda like loaning art out.
Does that extend to all the artifacts they purchased? If I buy a painting from an artist, and years later their grandchild demands it back saying it’s a family heirloom, am I under any obligation to return it?
British museum is truly terrible, but tbh the only reason people know about it and know to tag on it is because they try to reckon with their existence. Just over the channel in France is Musée du Quai Branly, which was originally going to be called “museum of the primitive arts”, that first of all costs money (BM is free) but also does a terrible job of explaining what the items are and who stole them from whom. BM tries to contextualiza what they stole and when and from whom, Quai Branly is a straight up colonial museum (there are other worse museums in Europe)
Typical Viking hippie response.
Yes, actually. It is very much in line with my values as a left wing pacifist from Scandinavia 😁
Excellent! Viking hippies sound super chill - my kinda people!
Thanks, right back at you 😁
I’ll take that as a compliment?
Sure!
There’s only the country of destination
Imagine all these country’s have trash that is worthless.
Some British guy comes along and says I “hey see that over there can I buy it?” “What that trash?” “Yes” “Sure thing dipshit”
Then instead of being destroyed like everything else it gains value and then they want it back.
Yea sure I also want my dads apple shares he sold in 1985 because I didn’t realise they would be valuable in the future when he sold them.
Most of the stuff was bought.
But even the conquest shit. People have been conquesting each other for ever. Suddenly you want to take stuff back of one country that just happened to be good at it in the days when everyone agreed that was how the world worked.
“We shouldn’t do the right thing because neither did our ancestors.”
The British bought it. It’s ours. That’s how ownership works.
It’s not up to the British to parent the world. They made their choice.
It wouldn’t exist in the present if the British hadn’t bought it and looked after it.
If you’re speaking of the geographic coordinate system, england IS the origin 🤷
What’s the difference between a british archeologist and a grave robber?
The Diploma
“MY MUSEUM”
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Rest of the world being British museum inventory
What is the country of origin? Please point out to me where the Aztec country is. Do you mean Mexico? Are they entitled to all the relics of the past civilizations theirs crushed? And yes, I know the idol in Indiana Jones isn’t really Aztec, but the overall point stands.
With the exception of the very few cases where a country can actually trace its culture and history all the way back to when those artifacts were made, ancient culture and artifacts belong to humanity as a whole, not whatever geopolitical entity happens to control the land they’re on at the time of discovery. It’s not a natural resource, it’s human history.
While we may debate wether the Aztecs descendants are now the Mexicans, they’re clearly not the English. The fact that it’s human history is exactly why it can’t be all stored in mostly one museum in one country
Would it be ok if Spain took it then?
The Aztecs are not from Europe, dingdong. How is this a difficult concept??
I don’t think that strangers coming to your country and taking your historical artifacts is a good thing, wether it’s the English or the Spanish
It should be as close to the origin as possible. Sure Mexico isnt fully “Aztec’” but it’s the closest option, certainly closer than anyone else
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Uh yikes. Mexico has issues but they also have real institutions too. Further, who are you or I to say? Even if such issues exist, it’s already a system in failure-state. Returning to the host country is the first step towards a success-state, even if internal theft happens afterwards.
Put this way: as long as the home nation has an appropriate facility, the artifact should be returned promptly.
I agree with most of your points, but not this:
Further, who are you or I to say?
I don’t have a say, as I neither have artifacts nor am of the relevant culture. You may speak for yourself. But others may have a say.
However, this could be interpreted as the facilities with the artifacts currently, have no say. They very much do. Discounting them is also wrong.
We can all discuss the moral grounds, which should include which groups get a say.
Cheers
Not sure what you mean. We are all from places, which may be missing artefacts.
Mexico has the federal department INAH (National Institute of Anthropology and History), which preserves and cares for ancient artifacts and historical sites from the Maya, Aztec, Izapa, Teotihuacan, and more. They operate over 100 museums and handle over 139,000 archeological sites, with 150 open to the public. I think Mexico would be able to handle any artifacts found in Mexico.
The country of origin wouldn’t appreciate it in a museum.
Maybe it’s you that belongs in a museum
I dont think you appreciate your car so its fine if I steal it, right?
I don’t think people understand that I was speaking from the perspective of the academic adventure archeologists.