For the second time this month the Biden administration is bypassing Congress to approve an emergency weapons sale to Israel as Israel continues to prosecute its war against Hamas in Gaza under increasing international criticism.
For the second time this month the Biden administration is bypassing Congress to approve an emergency weapons sale to Israel as Israel continues to prosecute its war against Hamas in Gaza under increasing international criticism.
Bro, it’s like they wanna lose so badly next year election. Listen to the people voting for you, for fuck sake.
Are you new here, or did you miss when the Democratic party shut down Bernie Sanders twice in a row because he was gaining momentum and they were like “fuck, we can’t have a person who actually cares as President, we might not have as much money!!!”
Because this is par for the course.
Not the best comparative argument, since the voting public was quite clear in that regard and the conspiracies claimed were debunked pretty easily.
I, for example, was someone who voted against him because of his long-standing anti-science stances and his promotion of pseudoscience (such as him personally using his Senate position to host an “alternative medicine” conference).
You mean when they destroyed the Iowa caucus and handed the victory to a nobody loser candidate who never won another state?
Not like it fucking matters. He showed his true colors when the Party gave him his marching orders. Bend the knee to the nominee, support the President no matter what, and for what? Clout? Social Democrats are the moderate wing of fascism.
the democratic party is controlled opposition
They were controlled opposition. What Biden is doing right now is some literal Nazi shit that I only expected Trump to do this openly.
Biden allowed a sale that was planned long before this incident to go through.
Under Trump, 7500 Muslim civilians were killed in drone striked. https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers
Trump has said he will be dictator for the 1st day to immediately deport all Muslims.
But both sides are the same.
Indeed. So vote third party or you vote for a literal Nazi.
What even is the conspiracy there? Buttigieg won. Narrowly, but he won. And both he and Sanders demanded recounts for several of the counties, which was done. Incompetent county level people, often because they have no experience and are even volunteers for much of the vote counting, is fairly common. The complicatedness of Iowa’s procedure, where non-viable candidate voters get to re-vote for the viable ones makes errors even more likely.
And errors were made in favor of both Buttigieg and Sanders, which were later corrected.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/
Clinton and her campaign literally were so full of hubris that they thought beating Trump was a shoe-in and went out of their way to help him become the presumptive nominee because they were so sure of this.
I will never forgive anyone involved in the Clinton campaign for this, and if you refuse to see how the scales have been tipped for corporate friendly Democrats at the expense of Democrats who actually give a shit about things like unions and working people, I don’t know what to say.
I mean for fucks sake, Biden is why Student Loans aren’t dischargeable in bankruptcy but we’re supposed to give the guy a handy for trying and failing to barely wipe any student debt away. He definitely didn’t just go back in time and take his vote back, and he definitely didn’t push congress to write new legislation to make it dischargeable in bankruptcy again.
But sure, it was just a big fucking accident that Clinton lost to Trump and it’s just a big fucking accident that Biden keeps going around congress to send money to Israel.
https://observer.com/2017/05/dnc-lawsuit-presidential-primaries-bernie-sanders-supporters/
Why even make such an argument if you can’t just prove you didn’t do such a thing instead of being like “actually, it’s totally legal for us to do that, so you need to be okay with it?”
This is literally just like Trump. He’s not denying he tried to do a coup in court, he’s quibbling about fucking wonky bullshit like whether or not the President is an “office” of the US. It’s a bunch of talking out of both sides of their mouth.
If they could defend what they did, they wouldn’t have turned to this defense in court. The fact that they did always speaks to them not giving a shit.
We were talking about 2020. What does any of the block of text you’ve wrote have to do with voting conspiracies?
The original statement made by me referenced that this happened twice and this was the first of those two times that I referenced. Just because you decided to only talk about 2020 doesn’t mean that’s the only one I was referring to. I wonder if you didn’t want to talk about the other because of the literal mountains of fucking evidence behind it?
If you want to do a run-around and act like previous behavior from a major political party shouldn’t be used to judge their current behavior, you’re just not arguing in good faith.
I mean, if we’re going to pivot to conspiracies from the 2016 vote, we can bring up the coin toss thing. Brought up repeatedly as a conspiracy by Bernie supporters, they always seemed to leave out that there were multiple coin tosses across counties in that state and…Bernie won more of them than Hillary did. He just lost the vote so badly in total in that state that that didn’t give him enough delegates to win the state as a whole.
But, for some reason, Bernie and his supporters only talk about a single one of those coin tosses.
The AP itself doesn’t trust the results enough to declare a winner.
Shadow Inc., which both Buttigieg and Biden payed for services in 2019, shat the bed and ruined the caucus. Those results and the recanvass were riddled with errors and inconsistencies, ranging from bad math to bad handwriting to bad head counting. It’s not trustworthy.
Now, for my speculation: the Party sabotaged the Iowa caucus to stop an outsider from getting momentum in Iowa. Maybe the plan was always to just crash the caucus so it didn’t matter, maybe Iowa was always supposed to be sacrificed, but if Bernie had won Iowa and then proceeded to win all the states leading up to South Carolina I don’t think Biden would have won. There’s a clear motive.
And what we do know is Obama played kingmaker by getting almost the entire field of candidates to drop out, including the supposed Iowa winner Buttigieg, to endorse Biden and keep the outsider from recovering after South Carolina.
Part ordinary party-politics, part suspicious dealing with Shadow Inc., and the outsider was kept from winning. I know is there’s no hope for me in that party, because if another outsider comes they will be stopped because the party will circle the wagons.
Especially now Iowa has been discarded. No more first in the nation, no more caucus, we’re just another trash redstate to be ignored.
That is, at least, a conspiracy. Not one that stands up to scrutiny though. Shadow Inc did screw up. Unfortunately, if you look at state level things in many, many prior elections, that’s not uncommon. State level voting systems are tacked together, poorly funded crapshoots.
And your claims about Obama doesn’t have anything to do with the voters. If the people who supported those candidates supported Bernie as a replacement, then that’s how they would have voted. But they didn’t. He in fact lost worse than in the previous election.
The fact that the earliest states in the primary have long been those that don’t represent the general Democrat voting public has been a complaint for years, if not decades. So changing what states are at the beginning has been something pushed for for years as well.
So your argument is “all state level elections are fucked and Iowa isn’t special”. That’s actually a reasonable counter argument! Maybe all states look shady and corrupt and broken whenever anyone looks at them as closely as people looked at Iowa after the caucus imploded. If that’s the case, though, then that’s just a further argument for not trusting the elections!
And to clarify, I wasn’t claiming Obama playing kingmaker was a conspiracy (although it was in the literal sense of the word i.e. multiple politicians conspiring together to make Biden the nominee by endorsing him). That’s actually just normal party politics. It just shows that there’s actually no hope for an outsider to win a party nomination, which is to be expected.
I’ve decided I’m just not voting next election. I’m sick of all the drama and lies, The US is fucked anyway, might as well not leave it on life support. Between constant wars, inability to handle the most basic of citizens needs and each party being a pissing contest I just decided there’s no point in doing so. Not like either candidate follows their user bases values anyway and it’s super unlikely anyone else will win. I’ll change my mind when I see evidence that says otherwise. I’ve given it 8 years and seen no real big change.
I don’t blame you. It’s exhausting to see American leadership spending the minimal amount of political capital to please the ruling class while working class Americans suffer and we see our tax dollars funding wars and genocide abroad. I’ve decided to vote for Claudia and Karina on the PSL ticket. It will be the first time ever voting for PSL but I am so done supporting conservative Democrats offering last minute concessions after flopping through the entirety of their term.
https://votesocialist2024.com/our-program
Thanks for sharing!
For those reading this and think third party votes are “A wAsTE oFA vOtE”
It’s a waste of your vote to vote for someone you don’t want in office, just because you dislike the other likely candidate more.
A third party votes move to change main party platforms. If enough people vote for a third party, a major party is more likely to take up those stances to get those votes. Your vote isn’t always abouting winning.
Idiotic take.
How many civilian deaths is Biden responsible for and how many was trump responsible for? trump is probably the lesser of 2 evils in that respect at this point
Idiotic, totally clueless take.
Brilliant response I’m totally owned. Have fun voting for genocide
Trump ramped up killing civilians with drone strikes under his administration.
“Airwars, estimates the number to be as great as 7,500.”
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers
That’s direct deaths ordered by Trump which is completely different Biden allowing an arm sale planned months/years ago to go through.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-biden-administration-once-again-bypasses-congress-on-an-emergency-weapons-sale-to-israel
Biden gave Natenyahu carte blanche after oct 7th and told him the US would have his back no matter what. Biden is in the position to put pressure on the Israeli gov but refuses to do so. The blood is on his hands
Hundreds of thousands of people that died from covid likely would have lived had anyone else been in office, even other Republicans. If I was a law and order type I’d say Trump should be hanged for mass murder. But you could say the same of Biden when looking at his political history really.
After seeing the way Biden has handled covid you really think he would’ve done anything better than trump in 2020? I really really doubt it.
Biden has always pushed for more bombing in the middle east his record speaks for itself he’s a bloodthirsty imperialist.
Yeah, let the greater evil win earlier, what a plan. JFC
Considering my state banned the most likely primary republican candidate, I don’t think the democratic Party is dying for my specific vote. And if they were, my recommendation is to find someone who can walk the walk. I don’t think the current one failed but, I think his priorities are in the wrong location. That is the entire point of the voting system, “you can’t not vote X or Y will win” is a toxic mindset, changes never happen if you just blindly vote regardless of situation.
I think people are finally asking themselves “If I’m voting for a lesser evil, and every vote of my lifetime has been a vote for ‘lesser evil’, is it the ruling class itself that is evil?”
Your choice is between killing some or killing them all. Trump has said he will deport all Muslims as dictator on day 1. He expressed no sympathy for Gaza instead saying he wants it to play out.
It’s the lesser of 2 evils. The world isn’t fair. But you have the power to stop the worse evil.
Thank you for not supporting anyone committing genocide.
Either a third party or no vote.
LMFAO. Vote for Trump. That’ll surely help the Arabs…who he fucking banned from America on his first day in office last time. Super big brain move by the pro pally crowd if they pull that one off.
Honestly, I’m sure the right wing loves this. They love a good war, and Trump won’t give that to them.
On the flip side, watch Trump convince them all to denounce war. That would be hilarious.
I’m already not voting for Joey.
Never voting for the lesser evil again.
The entire world can burn in hell, for all I care. It’s what we deserve for constantly pussy-ing out.
So instead of just not voting and pussy-ing out encourage yourself and others to do more than just abstain. Voting is only one basic step for a society, we need to take real actions to make the change we want. Part of pussy-ing out is the idea that voting is all we can do, and now that voting seems useless we are just boned. There have always been people on the ground agitating for the real progress.
Lots of us believe in Israel’s right to defend itself. You’re on Lemmy, so it can seem that this isn’t a divided or divisive issue, but I assure you it is–especially among people who know their history. Another reason the bulk of the 18-24 group is making up a lot of the Hamas sympathizers.
Not looking to debate it eith you, but I PROMISE, if you get out of the Lemmy bubble you’ll find it’s not a cut and dry situation like you framed it.
Having a right to defense doesn’t mean you can take it out on a civilian population.
Yet that’s exactly what Israel has done for decades and every gd President has backed them on it.
Nothing ever changes.
sigh
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Hamas has launched over 10,000 rockets at Israel in November alone. If Israel is getting bombed, they should be able to defend themselves.
If you had caught me before the Oct attack, we’d probably have agreed on more. All the collective punishment pre Oct was obviously war crimes, and Bibi and much of Likud should be tried and convicted as war criminals. Even with the constant war crimes (with the approval of the Palestinian people) of launching rockets at civilians, collective punishment wasn’t warranted.
All the other failed measures were better to try (walls and shit). But it’s ridiculous to sit by and not do something about the October attack and encourage these terrorists just like ignoring all their other terrorism for decades has done.
I’ve yet to hear a realistic and potentially effective solution for dealing with Hamas, other than eradicating them. But I’d love to know how the current efforts could be supplanted by something more effective.
For over two decades, tens of thousands of rockets have been lobbed into Israel with the support of the Palestinanian people who gladly elected Hamas while they did so and continued to do so to this day. This isn’t a homogenous group of innocents. That’s a Lemmy fantasy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Currently, they run at 75% approval for the Oct. 7th attack.
There is no nation on earth who would have tolerated two decades of tens of thousands of rockets launched at civilians. And that’s while having tried walls, fences, border crossings, and on and on. All of which were decried as barbaric to Gaza (with reason), and which clearly failed to stop rocket attacks, and then October.
The twenty years of rocket attacks launched at civilians by the palestians are all war crimes. There’re no innocent parties here.
There’s only one difference between Israel and any other nation defending themselves from decades of war crimes and terrorist attacks… you can figure out what that is… just like everyone cries that they’re so passionate about the humanitarian crisis, but two of the largest humanitarian situations, Haiti and the DRC (with over 7 million displaced) get jack shit for news coverage.
People cover this conflict bc it’s trendy and religion.
They don’t continue to elect them to this day. They were elected one time, on a more moderate platform, and there hasn’t been an election since. They actually had less than 50% support before the attack, but getting bombed to shit makes you support the only group that’s willing to do something about them and fight back, do I get why they’re popularity may have risen since then.
Incidentally, that’s why bombing the crap out of civilians doesn’t stop terrorist groups. All those offers Israel is making just turns into more terrorists. Either that, or they kill all the Palestinians, which is genocide.
No people would tolerate what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians since the start of their occupation. The rockets are their only means of defense,and even those don’t do shit. Look at the numbers of dead from each side in every year. It’s not even comparavle. Israel isn’t defending themselves, they’re perpetrating the humanitarian crisis by their treatment of human beings, and then complaining when those people are pushed to the brink and lash out. Then they use it an excuse to do more genocide: displace people, take their land, and kill more children. The US did the same thing to the Native Americans, it’s the same playbook.
Yes, I know these delusions and have seen them here on Lemmy and amongst terrorist adjacent apologists all the time. Claims that the terrorists they elected aren’t really their elected government. Denying the fact that Hamas is the government of Gaza is just denying facts. People do it here because it doesn’t support the false narratives Lemmy loves so much.
The Palestinians elected Hamas, loving their war crimes like suicide bombings, blowing up bus loads of civilians, lobbing endless rockets into civilians, and cheering in the streets about it. Just like they celebrate the Oct attacks with a 75% approval level in Gaza. They didn’t trick the Palestinians into thinking they were peaceful, innocent angels, and then go “whoops our bad we are terrorists and war crimianls.” No, that’s who they elected on purpose.
Oh, and yes, the war crimes you support and apologize for as “their only defense” is just as bad as the rest of your claims. Every one of the tens of thousands of rockets fired has been a war crime. You’re an apologist for that. Take the time to sit down and realize how radicalized you already are that you think war crimes like tens of thousands of rockets laumched at civilians are the ONLY way they can defend themselves–your words. Like many here on Lemmy, you’re way down a dangerous and slippery slope.
And notice all the bitching and moaning comments, that accompany the thread nobody has a better solution for what’s going on to stop the rockets and mass terrorist attacks of the Gazan government. I’m still VERY open to hearing a realistic one. But you’re not going to.
Lastly, who are you defining as “the Palestinians”, do you count the millions in Jordan, Egypt, etc? Or do you think Gaza is all Palestinians? You diminish the term when you misuse and/or intentionally abuse the term genocide.
It’s not delusions, it’s called acknowledging facts. Fact:the last election was decades ago. Fact: Most of the population is under 18. Fact: Most of the population didn’t participate in that election. Fact: Hamas at the time was more moderate, or appeared to be, supported a two state solution and other more moderate policies. Fact: Most of the population didn’t support Hamas until Israel started doing a genocide. These are all facts. The irony of warning of a slippery slope when you’re ignoring all of these to defend an oppressive, genocidal, apartheid regime that’s killing tens of thousands more civilians, including children, than Palestine is palpable. You’re so stuck in your propaganda bubble you don’t even realize it.
Everyone knows the solution. Stop oppressing and blockading the Palestinians. Adopt a one state or two solution, give them autonomy, the ability to control their own land, power, sky, sea, trash, water, imports, etc. Either with their own state, or combine all the land into one, give equal protections to all people in a strong constitution, give representation to everyone, setup reconciliation panels to help the nation move past the crimes done and establish a new start, make treaties, etc. It was done in the UK with the Irish and South Africa. Israel thinks their situation is so special and unique, but it’s not. It’s the same settler colonial situation as all the others, except with Jewish people, so because they went through the holocaust, I guess they get a pass on genocide.
And genocide is what it is, or they’re dumb. Otherwise, what’s the plan? They’re just making more Hamas recruits by making all these orphans. You think they’ll like Israel after 30,000 dead? They’re either stupid or just plan on killing or displacing all the orphans, too, which is genocide. That’s what I’m saying.
Even before now, it looks like the same process, what they’ve been doing for decades. It’s the same as the natives in the US, which everyone would call a genocide, too, btw. It’s the same playbook. First, lots of colonialism and taking of land. Next, say they’re savage when they retaliate. Then, killing while moving them over bit by bit into smaller and farther pieces of land. Retaliate with huge violence when they try to fight back to kill off tons more and take more land. And their situation gets more desperate and they fight back more, retaliate harder, and repeat. It’s like the Nazis saying that it’s the only solution after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising because they too dangerous to govern. No shit, stop oppressing them.
This is one of the dumbest dogwhistles in existence. Everyone knows that’s not the actual point of contention.
It actually is a huge point of contention. That misunderstanding causes a lot of profanity and anger.
It’s not though, that is just false. No one in good faith will deny that a country has a right to defend themselves from an attack.
Setting aside your defense of genocide, it’s a divided issue, but support for Palestine is higher among democrats, and especially young democrats. Biden is actively losing young voters moment by moment, and that will lose him the election if he doesn’t fix it.
You don’t know what genocide is, and you demean the term by abusing it. As do a lot of people who have misappropriated it for propaganda reasons.
And yes, I know the younger the voter, the less history and background they have on this issue, and this the more knee jerk and blindly they react to Hamas propaganda. That’s one of the main points.
Actually the more people study the history of Israel, the worse it looks. When you start diving into the terrorist groups that drove the creation of Israel, that then were forgive for their war crimes, combined with their mainstream right party, and one even became prime minister; or Britain’s betrayal of the Palestinians after they helped them fight the Ottoman Empire during the war, or the historical opinions of Jews who survived the holocaust talking about the terrible treatment of Palestinians even back in 1948, etc it doesn’t look good.
Get out of your bubble, man. And expand your sources.
If you’re citing the terrible treatment of the Palestinians in 48, then expand and look at the expulsion of the Jews from the Muslim world and the theft of all their land. Approximately 800,000+, who then fled to Israel.
The point is your one-sided perspective and cherry picking of examples for this reductive reply.
As far as the Ottoman empire, Jews lived there before it fell in WWI. Including, (GASP), Palestinian Jews, which Lemmy doesn’t even seem to realize existed. Or tall about the useless land that they purchased and transformed and THEN it became an issue with pre 48 conflict.
And if you think Britian betrayed the Palestians instead of COMPLETELY fucked the middle east hand in hand with Russia, France, and the US through incompetence, arrogance, and racism… then you’ve either not studied the subject or you’re being intellectually disingenuous.
Pretending there’s innocent parties here is an easy way to spot someone who doesn’t know what the fuck their talking about or worse is being intentionally dishonest.
I can easily roll off examples of settlers’ crimes and pre Israeli settlers, but I’m aware of plenty of Arab ones too.
I can provide a laundry list of war crimes Bibi and the Likud party should be tried and convicted for, but I can do the the same for both Gaza and the West Bank.
If you’re sure this is one-sided, then you need more and different sources.
If you really want to delve into history and issues arising, why are the Israel’s arguably the first people’s / first nation. Treated so differently worldwide than all other first nations? Hmm. LOL
Why does every Israeli argument come down to “we were oppressed and killed en masse so we’re allowed to oppress and kill en masse others”? That’s not a defense. By your logic, black people in the US should be allowed to kill white people in the South and take everything below the Mason-Dixon.
Lemmy does acknowledge this, you just ignore it. It actually doesn’t help your argument at all. Jewish, Christians, and Muslim Arabs lived in peace in the area for centuries. That’s a huge argument against the necessity of Israel as it’s one Jewish ethnostate and a huge argument for a one-state solution, the one I prefer myself. And no one minded the land they purchased until they started buying it from the UN without consulting the local people who actually lived there. Israel always says it was legal, but ethically it’s horrible. Imagine your landlord selling your stuff and land without consulting you after promising you he’d sell it to you soon if you rebel against your old landlord.
Ya, they did both, but that’s unrelated. What’s your point here? My point was that there’s a reason Palestinians were angry at being promised their own state and then Britain and France giving huge portions to what would become Israel. It explains a lot of later actions that Israel doesn’t like to give context for, like when they’re attacked by surrounding nations (after all, that’s where the Palestinian refugees end up running to and affecting). Not sure what your point was.
There’s no completely innocent party. I mean, Hamas sucks. But the power dynamics make things more clear. All the power to change things lies in Israel, who has an actual government, state, military, advanced defense technology, etc and controls everything about the Palestinian territories.
I’d bet you money they don’t really compare. That’d like saying I can say plenty of times the Native Americans did horrible things to the white settlers to the US, but I can tell you 100% that one side was way worse than the other when you factor in scale of damage, power, and historical context.
Treated differently how? They get special treatment, I suppose, but I have a feeling that’s not what you mean. They’re condemned as much as other nations. Probably should be condemned more, up there with Russia, but they got the US backing them up. Other than that, they’re brought up a lot because 1) people are more anti-colonialosm now than they used to be and 2) most of the English-speaking internet is from the US and it’s allies who donate tons of money to Israel, so unlike other places of horror, a lot of the citizens who speak up can actually do something about it, and 3) I actually don’t think people speak up enough. People have generally ignored the plight of Palestinians for decades, part of the reason they’re so angry lol.
We are getting into so much that it’s hard to reply to everything immediately… I will just do chunks when I have the time and though we clearly, deeply, disagree, thank you for the conversation.
I was not trying to make that argument. I was indicating that you were leaving out relative and pertinent counter-facts. Being oppressed does not give one the right to oppress others. But when you hear about stolen Palestinian (Arab) land (which DID and DOES happen to this day), you never hear about stolen Jewish land and exile from the same conflict as part of this conflict. Neither existed in a vacuum. Neither justified the other. But with many claims and views on Lemmy, only one side informs the thinking. I take exception to that.
I am really trying to be clear here. The collective punishment that the Palestinians have suffered since the second intifada is war crimes. Literally, collective punishment is a war crime. Bibi, and many in Likud (whom I detest with a passion rivaled only by my revulsion at American republicans and neo-libs… capitalists…) are ALL war criminals, should be tried and convicted for it. Yes, I know Israel isn’t a signatory to the ICC… idc. They should all be convicted of their war crimes.
But I will not pretend that the Palestinians were some angelic group of peace-loving people who have been nothing but oppressed and have no blood AND war crimes on their hands.
Evaluated in a vacuum, anybody would understand many of these radicalized anti-Israel views. Because Israel is GUILTY of WAR CRIMES. I am not excusing or defending it. I WILL debate some horrors of war, though as not being clear-cut war-crimes. Especially Hamas’ co-location war crimes, which are the worst of the conflict as they have been committed for decades with nobody doing anything about it.
But I do not view the conflict in a vacuum, and sincerely believe it makes zero sense to do so. Here’s a severely abridged list of things that affect my views and thinking on the conflict:
pre-WW I, in the Ottoman empire, Palestine was not a deep and widespread national identity. Most Arabs (the majority of people in the Ottoman Empire identified tribally or by family). And Palestine was a place filled with Christians, Muslims, and Jews, with relatively low levels of conflict (but also not a peaceful Disney wonderland, as I have seen pro-ported in some claims). And when the immigration of Jews increased post 1908, so did resentment and hatred directed towards them similar to all anti-immigrant behavior (like Brexit, America/Mexico, etc.) You can find historical articles on how Jews moving in lowers the value of the land, and how undesirable they are, directed as much at the immigrant aspect as it was the religious. Much like white neighborhoods trying to keep blacks out in the US, nobody wanted the new Jewish Immigrants… or you could think the Irish influx of America around the turn of the century. Anyway, many definitely minded the Jewish immigrants and people did mind the land they purchased.
Historic claims are arbitrary and relative, to a degree. What do I mean? For instance, who’s claims do we honor? Israel’s biblical claims to the land (as an Athiest, this is not compelling to me. archaeological and objectively supported claims are more compelling, even so, who the fuck cares what happened back then?) The Crusaders who lost the land (should it be returned?)? The Ottoman empire (who I could debate on the side of Suleiman the Great, was one of the best times for the region)? People, with this conflict, often pick the most convenient claim to support the point they are making? Maybe we should use the most recent legal recognition of Israel as a Jewish homeland and state? I think there is a very strong reason to use that one, but admit it’s debatable, and am not saying that there was not shady shit going on in the creation and recognition of the state. I will also say, MOST countries have shady pasts and formations. Surely we can agree on that too?
There were clearly horrific crimes during the Nakba. And even recognition of the Nakba has been suppressed in the West and especially in Israel. Most Americans do not even know the term Nakba. It is like how most Americans do not know that Central Park was an African American area of properties that was literally stolen from them to make the park. Or the ignorance about how many other American African American successful communities that were literally razed and occupied or erased from history and memory as best as the criminals could. Israel to this day has not unsealed numerous files on Nakba operations. I do not excuse these, but also do not find it a convincing argument to dismantle Israel as a state anymore.
I am highly open to a discussion and debate on it though. A meaningful, respectful one, not a normal Lemmy world news one where I get death threats regularly and comments to “fist yourself you fucker”. LMFAO.
Shit man, this is already getting too long. I’m sorry. My point early on when I was taking part in Lemmy World News (back in Oct) was that this is a SUPER deep and complicated issue. I am open to a respectful and intellectually honest discussion and debate. I am just not sure how to shrink it down.
Should we start a separate thread elsewhere, for people who want to discuss things honestly? Or even a community, so we can mod it and remove hate and propaganda…
Maybe we just leave it here in this thread and keep chatting like this. I don’t know, what do you think? If you just want me to (insert hatred here) lemmie know so I dont’ waste anymore time. ;)
Cheers
Genocide is action or intent to destroy a people in whole or in part because of their status as a member of that group. Israeli officials have made it clear numerous times that their ultimate goal is the removal of the Palestinian people from Palestine, which will result in mass death and destruction of their culture. This is textbook genocide.
You’re absolutely right that outside of “the lemmy bubble” you may find a shitload of unintelligent dumbasses. People incapable of critical thinking or the ability to form a thought of their own.
That was eloquent and a well supported argument. I’m convinced!
A lot of us believe in Palestinian’s right to defend themselves as well. I work in a city, among many people that have no idea what Lemmy even is, there is a Palestinian flag on my work’s building and we feel grief at the atrocities committed by Israel. You’re right it isn’t cut and dry, but the support for Israel is at the lowest I have ever seen in my life.
Let these people think this is public opinion. Let them vote for Trump. They hate dissenting opinions, they’re about to find out what that looks like when you support Hamas because the GOP is looking at them like they wrote the playbook. This is a clear case of the Left having the leopards circling and looking for some faces. They’re starting on university campus and will keep eating lol.
These people are just so gullible.
Soooo fucking naive.
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