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Can I not say that there are real fascists on the right, that it’s a very serious issue, and that I don’t agree with some things the left strongly identifies with?
I am against abortion. But someone else might be more libertarian (I am not a libertarian) yet view the Republican party as evil. Even if you think that person not a good person, calling them a nazi or a fascist doesn’t really make sense.
I’ll say yes, that you thinking abortion should be illegal is holding a fascist viewpoint. Does that make you a full-blown fascist? No. Is it a stepping stone? Maybe.
You mean like a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition?
So yeah, I fully believe that the belief that abortion should be illegal falls into those categories and is inherently pretty fucking fascist.
Also, I never called them a fascist, but I will call you an idiot.
One can be anti-choice and not stand for a centralized authoritarian government.
A hardcore libertarian that believes protecting human life is the first and only role of a government can be anti-choice. They’d be wrong on a number of levels, but that’s still a logical progression that works. Dude you call a fascist is basically that take in human form.
Either you don’t know what authoritarian means and think it means “any time a law passes I don’t like” or you are deliberately being obtuse.
Any idiot can copy a definition, but you’re not supposed to just twist it and make it mean whatever you want. You may as well not even copy the definition at that point.
Fascism has been studied and characterised extensively, it’s not about good and bad, it’s about a set of very clear signs the American right is heading towards fascism.
Abortion bans show that a nation is fixated of hierachal oppression, and the class stratification associated with further impoverishing those (minorities and the poor) unable to handle the burden of having a child or travelling to get an abortion.
Pretty big yikes to start out with just a blanket statement like that, but you do you.
But someone else might be more libertarian (I am not a libertarian) yet view the Republican party as evil. Even if you think that person not a good person, calling them a nazi or a fascist doesn’t really make sense.
I’m not really sure what you mean by this part other than you just think the term fascist is being applied in scenarios where there’s just disagreement?
But it really isn’t difficult to see the modern Republican party very much represents the ideals of fascism. It isn’t even a stretch. Let’s go through the definition of fascism:
“a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition” - from Merriam Webster Online
so in order:
Exalts nation and often race of above the individual? Check.
stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader? Seeing as how they tried to install Trump with a coup in 2021 I’d say that’s a pretty easy check.
severe economic and social regimentation? All you have to do is look at republican tax cuts to see that is a big fat CHECK.
forcible suppression of opposition? Look at who supports the police force and what groups are typically on the receiving end of police brutality. Check.
As you can see it doesn’t take waving a nazi flag or sieg heiling all over the place to fit at least some of the requirements to be labeled a fascist, and if we go by these metrics there are a lot of people actively supporting fascism in our country right now. I don’t think the term is much overused to be honest.
Umberto Eco gives an excellent 14 points to identify fascism.
The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
The cult of tradition: Apart from Maoists, Stalinists, and Leninists, (all of them very rare breeds nowadays) I see very little “traditionalist thinking” on the left. So, NO.
The rejection of modernism: Does the left see the Age of Reason as the beginning of depravity? No. Even the most ardent communists the pre modern times as riddled with the same problems as modernity. They tend to see modernity and the rise of the working class as part of the solution. NO.
Thinking is emasculation, and action without thinking is good: If anything, then the left has a tendency to be a bit too over intellectual. NO.
Disagreement is treason: I have never seen two people on the left agree with each other. NO.
Fear of difference: If there is anything the left embraces, it’s plurality. NO.
Appeal to social frustration: Lefty ideologies do not speak to a middle class which feels threatened from lower social groups. NO.
Obsession with a plot: Lefty ideologies tend to not buy into the whole “Jewish cabal” thinking. Though they tend to put “the billionaires” in their place recently. So this one gets a MAYBE.
The enemy is both strong and weak: Does the left see their enemy as scary and weak at the same time? Not really. The threat from the right tends to just be seen as scary and overwhelming. NO.
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy: Do lefties in general embrace war, struggle, and fight for survival, because fundamentally life is struggle? NO.
Contempt for the weak: NO.
Does the left embrace heroism? Quite the opposite. Lefty action is community action, where working together makes you strong. NO.
Distain for women, intolerance of non standard sexuality, and a love for weapons: Nope, the left is against all of that. NO.
Selective populism: That’s the first point where I would agree. The left sometimes does engage in populism. YES.
Does the left use elementary langauge in order to limit critical thinking and reasoning? Heck no. If anything, a lot of stuff from the left tends to be too complicated to be broadly accessible. NO.
So, to sum it up: There is one point among 14 which aligns. And one which somewhat aligns. While in 12 points current lefty thinking directly opposes UR fascism, as described here.
There are self-proclaimed leftist movements which fit ur-fascism as defined here. Which is unsurprising, considering that leftism is generally defined by opposition to capitalism, while fascism can be for or against capitalism.
Off the top of my head we’ve got progressive taxes, intersectionality (and general racism/sexism, rebranded daily), industrial welfare, the over-criminalization of social and economic conduct, arbitrary nationalization of resources and services, negative ROI public spending, unchecked support for labor unions, the subsidization of academia, and a general willingness to create unconstitutional law from any branch of government according to a broad, irrational, committee morality. Socialists take markets for granted and speak of privacy as though it’s part of the commons. In short, the left wing trends towards institutional collectivism at the cost of the individual liberties which are the foundation of collective action.
I am an economically centrist libertarian. I believe taxes should be based on resource use, not productivity, welfare should be unconditional, not coercive (and half liquid, not locked into the discretion of committee thinking), criminal law should be based on justice, not morality, and public spending should be productive, not performative.
For the record I have a separate laundry list of grievances with the right wing. I’ll zoom out since I’m facing left right now, but theocracy, monopoly, draconianism, the ignorance of systemic violations of natural rights, and support for the growth of industrial complexes (military, prison, healthcare, etc.) are among the issues. There’s a bipartisan willingness to replace justice with morality in the application of force; a viral acceptance of abuse followed by a question of flavor. What symbol would you like to be branded into the boot on your neck?
We are in this sensitive, polarized position because industry overwhelmed our agrarian notions of justice. That does not deprecate those notions. We should focus on the economic limitations that aggravate cultural issues and escalate us towards war.
“Progressive tax” refers to a tax rate which increases as taxable revenue increases. It doesn’t have anything to do with progressive cultural values. Georgism is based on a flat tax of a special resource, economic rent. Given how prone this forum is to willful misinterpretation, I should specify that I don’t support flat income tax, or any income tax for that matter.
I do not propose either to purchase or to confiscate private property in land. The first would be unjust; the second, needless. Let the individuals who now hold it still retain, if they want to, possession of what they are pleased to call their land. Let them continue to call it their land. Let them buy and sell, and bequeath and devise it. We may safely leave them the shell, if we take the kernel. It is not necessary to confiscate land; it is only necessary to confiscate rent.
──Henry George, Progress and Poverty
You seem to think I am unfamiliar with Henry George and I assure you that is quite untrue. I am all about LVTs, political dead-ends though they may be.
However, I am informed enough to know an LVT is inherently progressive.
That’s not an argument. I’m American, but none of these issues are exclusively American. There’s certainly lots of room for discussion of each of these issues, but the crux of my comment is that public policy is more complicated than @PoopingCough’s implication that there are no valid points outside the Everyone Vs. The Nazis false dichotomy.
I’ve been called a fascist for pointing out the reality that the US left’s emphasis on social rather than economic issues is alienating to a lot of blue-collar Americans who should be natural allies. Meanwhile I am an active member of my trade union and work with and talk to blue-collar people every day and know WTF I’m talking about.
I am literally a card-carrying member of organized labor and I get called a fascist for speaking the truth. It’s not good. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail in this thread.
And while there’s no way to know how true or not your statement it, it seems to me like you’re one of these people that’s economically left, but is either anti-trans, anti-muslim/immigrant or anti-some other minority group or a combination of all of them and at some point your got called out for that.
Your fan fiction about the internal motivations of those who disagree with you is not rational or empirical. You’re literally making stuff up right now.
Can I not say that there are real fascists on the right, that it’s a very serious issue, and that I don’t agree with some things the left strongly identifies with?
I think you can say whatever you want.
As long as you don’t engage in the behavior depicted in that comic, this comic doesn’t seem to be about you.
Why don’t you go ahead and name some of those things then?
I am against abortion. But someone else might be more libertarian (I am not a libertarian) yet view the Republican party as evil. Even if you think that person not a good person, calling them a nazi or a fascist doesn’t really make sense.
So the one thing you’re against is abortion? Then don’t get one. If someone is being a fascist they deserve to be called out on it.
If I think abortion should be illegal that makes me a fascist? Or are you saying something else?
I’ll say yes, that you thinking abortion should be illegal is holding a fascist viewpoint. Does that make you a full-blown fascist? No. Is it a stepping stone? Maybe.
Being pro or anti choice does not make someone a fascist.
I think anti-choice people are objectively incorrect but I also understand the meaning of the word fascism.
Not everyone you dislike is a fascist.
You mean like a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition?
So yeah, I fully believe that the belief that abortion should be illegal falls into those categories and is inherently pretty fucking fascist.
Also, I never called them a fascist, but I will call you an idiot.
One can be anti-choice and not stand for a centralized authoritarian government.
A hardcore libertarian that believes protecting human life is the first and only role of a government can be anti-choice. They’d be wrong on a number of levels, but that’s still a logical progression that works. Dude you call a fascist is basically that take in human form.
Either you don’t know what authoritarian means and think it means “any time a law passes I don’t like” or you are deliberately being obtuse.
Any idiot can copy a definition, but you’re not supposed to just twist it and make it mean whatever you want. You may as well not even copy the definition at that point.
Then don’t get an abortion. Why should your opinion apply to anyone else but you?
And let’s be clear about this, it is a wholly subjective opinion. You cannot prove where consciousness begins, your opinion on this matter is a whim.
Fascism has been studied and characterised extensively, it’s not about good and bad, it’s about a set of very clear signs the American right is heading towards fascism.
Abortion bans show that a nation is fixated of hierachal oppression, and the class stratification associated with further impoverishing those (minorities and the poor) unable to handle the burden of having a child or travelling to get an abortion.
Pretty big yikes to start out with just a blanket statement like that, but you do you.
I’m not really sure what you mean by this part other than you just think the term fascist is being applied in scenarios where there’s just disagreement?
But it really isn’t difficult to see the modern Republican party very much represents the ideals of fascism. It isn’t even a stretch. Let’s go through the definition of fascism:
“a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition” - from Merriam Webster Online
so in order:
As you can see it doesn’t take waving a nazi flag or sieg heiling all over the place to fit at least some of the requirements to be labeled a fascist, and if we go by these metrics there are a lot of people actively supporting fascism in our country right now. I don’t think the term is much overused to be honest.
Umberto Eco gives an excellent 14 points to identify fascism.
Bro this applies a little too well to the left too
Let’s examine that:
The cult of tradition: Apart from Maoists, Stalinists, and Leninists, (all of them very rare breeds nowadays) I see very little “traditionalist thinking” on the left. So, NO.
The rejection of modernism: Does the left see the Age of Reason as the beginning of depravity? No. Even the most ardent communists the pre modern times as riddled with the same problems as modernity. They tend to see modernity and the rise of the working class as part of the solution. NO.
Thinking is emasculation, and action without thinking is good: If anything, then the left has a tendency to be a bit too over intellectual. NO.
Disagreement is treason: I have never seen two people on the left agree with each other. NO.
Fear of difference: If there is anything the left embraces, it’s plurality. NO.
Appeal to social frustration: Lefty ideologies do not speak to a middle class which feels threatened from lower social groups. NO.
Obsession with a plot: Lefty ideologies tend to not buy into the whole “Jewish cabal” thinking. Though they tend to put “the billionaires” in their place recently. So this one gets a MAYBE.
The enemy is both strong and weak: Does the left see their enemy as scary and weak at the same time? Not really. The threat from the right tends to just be seen as scary and overwhelming. NO.
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy: Do lefties in general embrace war, struggle, and fight for survival, because fundamentally life is struggle? NO.
Contempt for the weak: NO.
Does the left embrace heroism? Quite the opposite. Lefty action is community action, where working together makes you strong. NO.
Distain for women, intolerance of non standard sexuality, and a love for weapons: Nope, the left is against all of that. NO.
Selective populism: That’s the first point where I would agree. The left sometimes does engage in populism. YES.
Does the left use elementary langauge in order to limit critical thinking and reasoning? Heck no. If anything, a lot of stuff from the left tends to be too complicated to be broadly accessible. NO.
So, to sum it up: There is one point among 14 which aligns. And one which somewhat aligns. While in 12 points current lefty thinking directly opposes UR fascism, as described here.
That’s why I think your opinion is very strange.
There are self-proclaimed leftist movements which fit ur-fascism as defined here. Which is unsurprising, considering that leftism is generally defined by opposition to capitalism, while fascism can be for or against capitalism.
Off the top of my head we’ve got progressive taxes, intersectionality (and general racism/sexism, rebranded daily), industrial welfare, the over-criminalization of social and economic conduct, arbitrary nationalization of resources and services, negative ROI public spending, unchecked support for labor unions, the subsidization of academia, and a general willingness to create unconstitutional law from any branch of government according to a broad, irrational, committee morality. Socialists take markets for granted and speak of privacy as though it’s part of the commons. In short, the left wing trends towards institutional collectivism at the cost of the individual liberties which are the foundation of collective action.
I am an economically centrist libertarian. I believe taxes should be based on resource use, not productivity, welfare should be unconditional, not coercive (and half liquid, not locked into the discretion of committee thinking), criminal law should be based on justice, not morality, and public spending should be productive, not performative.
For the record I have a separate laundry list of grievances with the right wing. I’ll zoom out since I’m facing left right now, but theocracy, monopoly, draconianism, the ignorance of systemic violations of natural rights, and support for the growth of industrial complexes (military, prison, healthcare, etc.) are among the issues. There’s a bipartisan willingness to replace justice with morality in the application of force; a viral acceptance of abuse followed by a question of flavor. What symbol would you like to be branded into the boot on your neck?
We are in this sensitive, polarized position because industry overwhelmed our agrarian notions of justice. That does not deprecate those notions. We should focus on the economic limitations that aggravate cultural issues and escalate us towards war.
Lmao imagine opening your fucking list with being against progressive taxation.
Edit: and you write an entire screed in your history about Georgism, and yet don’t realize it’s inherently progressive. Jesus dude c’mon.
“Progressive tax” refers to a tax rate which increases as taxable revenue increases. It doesn’t have anything to do with progressive cultural values. Georgism is based on a flat tax of a special resource, economic rent. Given how prone this forum is to willful misinterpretation, I should specify that I don’t support flat income tax, or any income tax for that matter.
If everyone doesn’t own land, Georgism is by definition progressive.
How do you not know this?
You seem to think I am unfamiliar with Henry George and I assure you that is quite untrue. I am all about LVTs, political dead-ends though they may be.
However, I am informed enough to know an LVT is inherently progressive.
I think you’re talking about the poltiical philosophy of progressivism as opposed to progressive tax, especially progressive income tax.
Lmao
Not an argument.
🤣
Is this post sincere? This has to be trolling right? Or are you talking about some other country aside from the US?
That’s not an argument. I’m American, but none of these issues are exclusively American. There’s certainly lots of room for discussion of each of these issues, but the crux of my comment is that public policy is more complicated than @PoopingCough’s implication that there are no valid points outside the Everyone Vs. The Nazis false dichotomy.
And you claim this while making…shitty points that are not founded in any study of economics whatsoever.
Dude tees you up perfectly and you swing directly into the woods.
Not an argument.
Yeah that’s because here im just laughing at you
It’s hard to formulate arguments for childishly naive libertarians who have obviously never lived in the real world.
That’s not an argument.
Removed by mod
Not an argument.
I’ve been called a fascist for pointing out the reality that the US left’s emphasis on social rather than economic issues is alienating to a lot of blue-collar Americans who should be natural allies. Meanwhile I am an active member of my trade union and work with and talk to blue-collar people every day and know WTF I’m talking about.
I am literally a card-carrying member of organized labor and I get called a fascist for speaking the truth. It’s not good. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail in this thread.
In the US the right has: Banned abortion (SCOTUS) Banned books. Made it okay to discriminate against gay people (303 creative) Banned drag shows. Is thinking about banning contraceptives.
There is no debate here. The right is banning things. The left has no equivalent bans on social issues.
3 of the last 4 GOP presidents proudly cut taxes for rich people. To distract you from that, the right is doing culture wars or wars on woke.
This whole thing seems sus.
And while there’s no way to know how true or not your statement it, it seems to me like you’re one of these people that’s economically left, but is either anti-trans, anti-muslim/immigrant or anti-some other minority group or a combination of all of them and at some point your got called out for that.
Your fan fiction about the internal motivations of those who disagree with you is not rational or empirical. You’re literally making stuff up right now.