I know this question will sound silly to some, but suppose a group of people in a low key third world country decide to make their own commune. They work together to build up farming and industry purely based on their own need, and slowly expand to accomodate their needs.
I understand Communes are viewed as ineffective, but a commune like this would be meant to grow, not just remain isolated. It would inspire communes in other areas, and it would aim to expand.
I see a couple of issues with this:
- not all countries can do this. For example, Palestinians living in Palestine will suffer trying to do this. But most countries can, right?
- it will only benefit the tiny group of people within proximity to the commune. But the commune can 1) expand and 2) inspire communes in other locations
- some needs are hard for a small commune to make, such as computer chip manufacturing, and other things they will need to get from the non commune world
But still, I can’t see this as less than a good step forward?
Personally I don’t quite get it- if a group of people were to head to a developing country, purchase land and invest in it, and bring and develop their own talents- why would they then limit themselves to an insular commune model?
The majority of countries, developing countries included, are also capitalist. You will still need to exist within these socioeconomic frameworks, and come to an understanding with the local governance (which may or may not come with its own serious difficulties). Small, negligible communes in remote, neglible regions can probably(?) get by, but past a certain point (and especially with expansion and the kinds of political and industrial development you seem to be describing) a more concrete arrangement and place within the local economy, etc. would be more ideal (and probably necessary for survival/viability) IMO.
Capitalism (and particularly its highest form, imperialism) is the devil, yes. Yada yada (though I do think it is so)… But people will generally work in their own self-interest (and for projects past a certain scale it should be banking on that fact)- not necessarily “selfish/sociopathic interest” like the west likes to promote, but an insular, limited commune only has so much appeal, and so much sway in the world. Within the current global system, and the systems as they exist in most developing countries, I don’t quite understand why things should be limited to a commune alone, when those with such resources to start such a thing could also genuinely create the foundations for something even more broadly-reaching and potentially, politically/etc. potent. And I don’t understand either why the production should be limited to simply self-sufficiency rather than taking advantage of the typical advantages developing countries have in the global market (cheap production costs, etc) to pursue a trade surplus with the wider world and promote the development of the region (ideally while promoting/creating a strong foundation for labor organization and co-operative ownership, etc- hell if I know).
This is all just coming off the top of my head, so it’s not necessarily the most coherent or well thought out of concepts. But if a group with such resources were to head to a developing “third world” country- why create some commune of “splendid self-sufficient isolation?” Why not try to create a mini-China? It could start off as a commune (and it might very well be easiest to start off as such- akin to how China developed its own “”“ghost cities”“” as the west liked to mock) for many reasons, but I don’t see why remaining a commune (retaining the commune/communal spirit and organization would be another thing) would be so ideal.
(edit) simply a quick thought- but if you were to ask me, the initial humble beginnings of a “commune” model for instance of the scale described, could just as well be directed towards creating a planned community (with the goal of expanding into a town, or eventual city). And if such a group were to have the means and skills to create such a developed commune- as described, why not create for local markets and foreign exports as well, and thus help break the broader regions’ dependencies on foreign industry (or agriculture, etc)?
And why not seek to make the commune (whose organization presumably could develop/transition into a co-op or union of some kind, alongside some form of municipal govt.) indispensable (economically, technically, politically, etc) and expansive within the broader society itself?
Although not essential to my point, I am not encouraging people to move anywhere. This is under the assumption that the people of that specific country gather to do this, not for people to immigrate for it.
Can you please expand this point? I don’t quite understand what this “more concrete arrangement and…” is exactly, and why it’s needed.
I don’t necessarily agree with this. A capitalist state is much more likely to persecute someone doing this, but much less likely a commune. And when you’re just starting out, you’re quite vulnerable to the state, especially the mass surveillance and hyper militarized police states of today.
I just don’t see why that’s needed. Capitalists trade to accumulate capital, whereas a commune is interested in growing its ability to produce in a self sufficient manner.
That’s… Actually kind of what I’m getting at. And maybe you phrased it better than I could have.
Not intended to stay that way, which is why I called it a starting point!
Admittedly these three points more or less explained your concept to me, where I was stumbling on it prior:
Sounds good to me, then.
The goal of pursuing a trade surplus would be for much of the same reasons, as why China has done so. To further promote and concentrate the development of productive forces (industrial/agricultural) within the region, and to create a foundation from which local productive forces within the commune can exist long-term in the broader world, without being subsumed or made irrelevant by external capitalist production, and working towards actual political (socioeconomic) influence.
Admittedly, I still stumble on your explanations here, though it is not due to the language (your English is perfectly fine). I’m just not understanding the specifics- so, is the commune a “starting point” to inspiring other communes and an ever-expanding commune, or is it a “starting point” towards expanding beyond simply being a commune?
In hindsight, I suppose it doesn’t overly matter (though for the former, at some point it does sound like trying to create a “state within a state,”) or wouldn’t matter overly much within the short and medium-term, anyways. Though in regards to promoting actual socialist development then, if things were to expand past a certain point, the issue would rise up again- whether to create an insular system or framework of systems despite the external government, or to develop so as to slowly acquire political power within the pre-existing government and society.
As for this-
My point was that politically idealistic, self-sufficient communes with considerable assets (productive capabilities, land, expertise, etc) past a certain point cannot expect to be left alone, without interference from the local government and from the other forces of external capital. In fact, even tiny, negligible communes would receive at least some scrutiny now and then.
A “more concrete arrangement” would be the aforementioned things I described- expanding outwards into the broader society and world, and in doing so acquiring economic, industrial, societal influence and political power within the broader society so as to be a force in your own right, rather than a tasty snack for capitalists to devour when so inclined.