An update on Mozilla’s PPA experiment and how it protects user privacy while testing cutting edge technologies to improve the open web.

    • setVeryLoud(true);@lemmy.ca
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      3 months ago

      Genuine question, would you be willing to pay for all the content you consume using a “token” system where each page, video or other piece of media has a price to it, usually about a cent per article or 5c per video, is automatically debited from either an account loaded with real money or some sort of blockchain, at the discretion of the user? A token could be one cent.

      There’d be an open API, and multiple brokers could handle that transaction for you, so there is no vendor lock-in. You could even be your own broker if you set up your own server that talks to the servers hosting any media you’d like to consume. It would get rid of online advertising, but you have to pay out of pocket for server costs and content creation costs.

      • Allero@lemmy.today
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        3 months ago

        Sounds like BAT token from Brave

        Top up by buying it or watching ads somewhere else, and then spend on sites you see as important or flat to everyone who you visit and is connected to BAT ecosystem.

        • LWD@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          Mozilla had the opportunity to do this. Or to do something like this. GNU Taler is a thing.

          Mozilla pulled a sneaky trick on his community: convincing us that context sensitive advertisement needs to be collected by the browser. It’s on the back of another trick: convincing people that they can only make money through ads.

          A few months ago, Mozilla officially became an ad company, so any claim they make about privacy has a clear conflict of interest with their own monetary gain. By selling advertisements as a necessary evil, they can sell you the cure.

      • Chais@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        Yes.
        There used to be a service where you set an amount you paid each month and you could then mark pages/services for donation. At the end of the month your money would be split between all the pages/services you marked.
        It was called flattr.
        The elegance of this system is that you can set aside an amount of money you’re comfortable spending on art, or whatever you wanna categorise it as. So you’re fully in control of your spending. If videos/songs/articles/things cost a flat amount it’s easy to lose track of the total.

  • SkavarSharraddas@gehirneimer.de
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    3 months ago

    Maybe this should have been the initial announcement before they pushed it onto users. Though obviously some of the backlash is due to inept media going (as usual) for clickbait instead of research and actual reporting.

  • LWD@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    Mozilla is really going for a “third time’s the charm” approach on collecting extra data, aren’t they.

    First they silently started sucking up extra user data without consent and without warning, something not even Google attempted.

    Then, they got caught, and took to Reddit to paternalistically explain why they knew better than the user, and why a consent dialog would be confusing.

    And now, over a month after the initial reports come out, Mozilla triples down. What a stupid, stupid, stupid decision.


    Advertisement is a business. It’s not charity and it’s not a publicly owned resource. It doesn’t keep the Internet free, because it makes a boat load of money doing what it does. It doesn’t take an expert understanding of economics to see that any belief that advertisement allows for a free Internet is smoke and mirrors. The money comes from somewhere, notably from you.

    Either advertisement works, and you pay for your content by being psychologically manipulated into paying more than you otherwise would on things you don’t need, or it doesn’t, and businesses pay for ineffective advertisement, leading to increased prices.

    Advertisement is not free. It’s a trick that looks free if you ignore the entire way it functions.

    - commodoreboxer

    • Vincent@feddit.nlOP
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      3 months ago

      It’s just more communication about the same thing. Started out with just a mention in the release notes and a checkbox in the settings, which clearly wasn’t enough (hence your calling it “silently”), then a more elaborate response on Reddit, and now this more detailed blog post outside of Reddit’s walled garden. And I’m sure it’s not the last we’ll hear of it. (I’d be curious about the experiment’s results too, for example.)

  • rtxn@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    And website operators will be compelled to adopt this, how? They will likely just use PPA and also all of the tracking tools, or straight up not give a shit about PPA. Mozilla does not have the influence to affect real change. Until such a time, all of this is just worthless posturing.

    • Vincent@feddit.nlOP
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      3 months ago

      Mozilla by itself doesn’t have the influence to change it, but with Mozilla’s help (i.e. this experiment), others do. Specifically, legislators can have more freedom to implement strict privacy-protecting measures if they have proof that an alternative is available that doesn’t cost lots of voters their jobs.

      But you can’t provide that proof if you don’t run the experiment.

      • LWD@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Wait, what solution are you proposing? That every browser becomes a centralized point of data collection for advertisement companies, and that the government mandates it?!

        Google and Brave already want to do that, Mozilla is just stepping into the fray as a browser with less than 3% of a market share. There is nothing compelling to advertisers about a proprietary Mozilla solution.

        • Vincent@feddit.nlOP
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          3 months ago

          No, of course not :) I am proposing that governments curb privacy-invasive tracking, i.e. that the only way advertisers will have left to measure the impact of their ads, is non-invasive methods like PPA.

          • LWD@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            Why would a Firefox fan endorse the state coming down on the side of a Facebook made proposal? I remember when Mozilla used to be about fighting big tech corporations, not empowering them through state-mandated monopolies.

            • Vincent@feddit.nlOP
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              3 months ago

              Because the proposal itself appears to be good? I am not tribal enough to reject world peace if Facebook proposes it.

              I also don’t see how the proposal would lead to a Facebook monopoly.

              • LWD@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                If the Boeing Corporation started building “world peace” weapons silently into their commercial aircraft without telling anybody, I would question their commitment to world peace.

                When Mozilla, an AdTech company, builds extra advertising data collection into Firefox, I question their commitment to privacy and not simply selling ads.

    • Corvid@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Firefox already blocks all trackers by default. I think Mozilla is trying to be the good guy by providing a more private option that’s available to people that don’t use Firefox. It seems pretty naive, but I think their heart is in the right place.

      At the end of the day, this is just another setting to toggle off on a fresh install for those of us against all tracking and advertising on the web.

      • Vincent@feddit.nlOP
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        3 months ago

        There’s also the bit where if it doesn’t work out no real harm is done (to users - there’s obviously reputation damage to Mozilla now): people who already block things by default are not affected at all, and no new information is shared about those who don’t. Whereas the upside if it does work out is enormous. In other words, low risk, high gain. Even with low odds, that’s a path worth exploring.

  • asudox@programming.dev
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    3 months ago

    They sure do “improve” the “open” web by developing new tech that benefits advertisers.

  • viking@infosec.pub
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    3 months ago

    Here’s my takeaway on the article:

    Blablablablablablabla (…) bla.

    -> Deactivate it.

  • ngwoo@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I would be more okay with this if Firefox did more to block the tracking techniques that advertisers are currently using. They block third party cookies and compartmentalize social media cookies which is fine but they do almost nothing to stop the more insidious tracking techniques like device fingerprinting.

    Mozilla really wants to push me to Brave

    • Vincent@feddit.nlOP
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      3 months ago

      What more do you think should be done to stop fingerprinting, and does that involve sacrificing usability?

      (Also, “almost nothing” feels like a gross exaggeration? Just the Tor Uplift project brought in lots of measures, quite a few of which could even be enabled by default.)

      • ngwoo@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Brave randomizes the output of fingerprinting techniques like canvas rendering, system fonts, installed devices, etc in a way that makes you look like a real, consistent user providing real data that still allows the site to work, while still changing the output from one session to the next enough that sites can’t tell you’re the same person.

        Firefox claims to block all this but if you check their site they explain how it actually works:

        Firefox protects users against fingerprinting by blocking all third-party requests to companies that are known to participate in fingerprinting

        We’ve partnered with Disconnect to provide this protection. Disconnect maintains a list of companies that participate in cross-site tracking, as well a list as those that fingerprint users.

        This does nothing to actually disguise you. It’s the equivalent of putting a paper bag over your head when you think there’s a security camera. You stand out because of the bag and you don’t know where all the cameras are so you’re still being tracked when you don’t know it.

        I hate the idea of Brave because Chromium’s dominance will ruin the web but Firefox does not protect us.

        • Vincent@feddit.nlOP
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          3 months ago

          That is a bit confusing, but the feature called “Fingerprint Protection” (i.e. blocking known fingerprinters) isn’t the only protection built in. I’m not motivated enough to find a full list right now, but it also includes e.g. limiting the information in the User Agent header. I did at least find a list of things that were worked on at some point by searching for “Tor uplift”, which is a good starting point if you’d like to find more: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Fingerprinting

          I’d also add that actually blocking requests to known fingerprinters does help. It’s more like camera’s getting disabled when you’re around: sure, from the point of view of the camera, it’s suspicious that it stopped working, but it can’t see you, so it doesn’t know who is standing out.