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Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.
I love The Last Jedi. It twisted ESB just enough not to be a carbon copy, it eliminated a very boring villain in a surprising way, it made the seductive power of the dark side seem almost plausible (one of a smallish number of things The Acolyte actually did pretty well), actually engaged with the prequels in a substantive and respectful way, and left things open ended enough that Episode 9 could have been really interesting. Yoda’s appearance and interaction with Luke was amazing. That opening scene with Rose’s sister in the bomber was extremely moving for how little we knew, a “tone poem” if you will.
On the negative side, Finn’s arc was too subtly different from his Ep7 arc to make much difference. The logistics of the slow speed chase were a bit strained. We as the audience could have been clued into Holdo earlier than Poe was. The “your mom” joke didn’t land. The pacing (and I maintain pretty much only the pacing) of Canto Bight was weak. Then, it could have used a line or two of handwavium at various points to keep the Ackshully’s at bay: “The Raddus’ navicomputer locked onto the hyperdrive tracker.” Boom! Two birds with one stone.
It was still by far the best of the sequels and I’ll live and die on the hill that they’re all (yes, even THAT one) easier to watch than the acting and directing shitshow that was the prequels.
Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.
If it worked for you, more power to you, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind on this. But I can’t help myself when I see the apologetics for the “Luke ignited his light saber over a bad premonition scene”.
It’s not just “bad luck”, it’s bad writing. Luke didn’t just “wail on Vader” to get that “sweet hand vengeance”. He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the “threat” was sleeping.
The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.
I get that people can change over time, and not always for the better, but this is just hands down terrible character writing. Making such drastic changes in such an iconic character, without spending any time developing those changes, having those changes be directly counter to the lessons the character supposedly learned during his primary arc, and then using this unexplained change as the catalyst to the entire ST is awful writing.
And we are not even touching on his new found love of “THE SACRED TEXTS!”, or how he completely gives up and goes hermit mode.
I’ll give Rian credit for actually trying to innovate when it was his turn at bat, but his handling of Luke was honestly some of the most egregious examples of not understanding the characters you are writing, and having them pick up the idiot stick just to move the plot forward.
The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.
This really pisses me off and Disney have to carry that shit.
The jedi of the prequel/originals are wrong about emotions/feelings and Lukes prove then wrong when he saves Anakin. But because of this fuck up writing now Lukes is a dumb removed who got luck in the originals and is doomed to failed like the others jedis. We already saw that in the Boba Fett series when he gives up on Grogu because “too much attachment” come on dude.
It’s not just “bad luck”, it’s bad writing. Luke didn’t just “wail on Vader” to get that “sweet hand vengeance”. He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the “threat” was sleeping.
In both cases, Luke was doing his calm thing, acting how he thought a Jedi should, and trying to do everything the right way. In both cases, the forces of darkness were pushing at him, and in both cases he comes close to giving in to save lives but stops himself. With Ben, or really with Palpatine/Snoke (still hate that this was the direction JJ went in TROS) the fear part only lasts for a moment, but with terrible consequences. Luke had mostly learned. He wasn’t the same person, but when confronted with the same pressures he’d struggled in the OT, he had a moment where it came close. I didn’t find it out of character at all, just a case of not becoming a magical, perfect person after your period of most intense growth.
I think there’s an argument that we simply shouldn’t bring back iconic, archetypal heroes like that, but once the choice is made, it’s deeply uninteresting to have to be saints. As a commentary on teaching and aging and how trying to live up to the legacy of the Jedi as he knew them, I thought TLJ Luke was solid.
The “sacred texts” showed us that he was never truly as disillusioned as he wanted to make out, and that there was still a kid somewhere inside that understood the power of legend and legacy, and it informed his decision to help how he did.
Different aspects of these movies hit people in different ways, and I’m not really thinking I’ll convince many people either, but I’ll push back on the notion that it was “just” bad writing. TLJ had a point of view and an agenda, and I came out of it refreshed and optimistic and was genuinely taken aback at the backlash.
Far be it from me to denounce some joy you found in the movie. We both obviosuly like StarWars (fellow geeks!), and if you liked TLJ’s take, you do you.
I agree whole heartedly that it would be uninteresting to make Luke “saint-like”. My issue isn’t with him having flaws and room for growth.
But I stand by the fact that his “mistake” in the ST runs directly contrary to the central theme of and lesson learned in his original arc. It may have been “in character” for ESB Luke, but by the end of RotJ, he had been shown that the goodness in a person can overcome the darkness, even in Vader.
And TLJ didn’t spend any time developing his actions, it just kinda said “well, his central arc wasn’t as impactful as it seemed”. Which I do believe is lazy/bad writing.
To blatantly plagerize Wikipedia.
A character arc is the transformation or inner journey of a character over the course of a story. If a story has a character arc, the character begins as one sort of person and gradually transforms into a different sort of person in response to changing developments in the story. Since the change is often substantive and leading from one personality trait to a diametrically opposite trait (for example, from greed to benevolence), the geometric term arc is often used to describe the sweeping change.
Luke’s arc saw him learn to see and believe in the godness inside people, even when no one else could. Better writing would have pushed into his transformation, or found a previously unexplored flaw to examine. Having characters need to learn the same lessons over and over again is not only frustrating, it’s lazy writing and poor character development.
To that point, I once heard a youtuber recommend an alternative reason for Luke’s fall that would have leaned into this defining characteristic. They suggested that Luke still get the premonition regarding Ben, but believe the goodness in Ben could overcome the darkness. When Ben inevitably falls to the darkside, this could cause Luke to have a crisis of faith, fundamentally putting the plot in the same spot as the beginning of TLJ, but in a way that played off of Luke’s defining moment, as opposed to grinding against it.
Now you would have had to explain Ben’s turn to the darkside, but I think “my uncle attacked me” is also kind of a weak reason to betray his parents anyway (and kill his father, and attempt to kill his mother). And also fails to address his weird obsession with Vader, like that was just kind of glossed over.
Nah the hermit Luke in the episode 7 uses white clothes like a hopeful figure. In the 8 he uses it for 1s, throws the lightsaber and promptly walks to a tree and changes into a grey miserable figure. Rian chooses it.
Sure, it could’ve gone a number of ways. Rian had to invent a compelling reason (ie. a conflict) why Luke would sequester himself leaving the galaxy to decay. Obviously since it’s fiction there were multiple solutions to that.
Definitely could have gone a lot of different ways, and many of them would have been much better imho. That being said, no doubt JJ handed him a writing hard mode plot thread.
Make an interesting, compelling, convincing reason why a classic hero’s journey arch type would call it quits. Not an easy thing to do. And it definitely contributed to the problems.
(though when Mark Hamil was telling Rian he fundamentally disagrees with Rian’s interpretation of the character, it’s hard to say he didn’t have fair warning)
Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.
If they had chosen to show the dreams, Luke struggling with it for ages and that scene as a last resort failure I could agree with you. Like he wake up everyday and each day he go closer to Kylo’s bed, the scene could be awesome. In the movie looks like the little shit Luke became a weak mind Jedi.
I’m with you 100% on everything you wrote here and I’ve had this argument with my brother countless times. He blames Rian Johnson for everything bad about the sequels and it’s bs.
Personally I think the biggest thing TLJ suffered from was the split focus between Poe and Finn. It made both stories rushed or weak in various places.
And for that I blame Disney. Did you know that Poe wasn’t even supposed to be a big character? He was supposed to be in the first scene of Ep7 and that’s it. But execs saw his performance and insisted they needed his character to play a bigger role. As such, we get attention split between Poe and Finn and both suffer for it.
I feel awful for John Boyega who was such a massive Star Wars fan, got the role of his dreams, and then effectively got sidelined for a pretty-boy.
To my knowledge it wasn’t his decision. It was Kathleen Kennedy. Poe was a favorite among kids and helped sell a boatload of X-Wing toys. He was seen as the “Han Solo of the sequels” and Disney execs all but forced Rian to give him screen time. They couldn’t really reduce Rey’s role so Finn got screwed
Agreed on TLJ, it was the only part of the new trilogy that dared do something different. It was quite flawed, but hey, it’s Star Wars.
People don’t remember how much backlash there was at even Empire Strikes Back! They said the story was incoherent. They even criticized the quintessential “I am your father” plot twist as being ridiculous (rightfully so). But that’s kind of what makes Star Wars what it is.
Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.
I love The Last Jedi. It twisted ESB just enough not to be a carbon copy, it eliminated a very boring villain in a surprising way, it made the seductive power of the dark side seem almost plausible (one of a smallish number of things The Acolyte actually did pretty well), actually engaged with the prequels in a substantive and respectful way, and left things open ended enough that Episode 9 could have been really interesting. Yoda’s appearance and interaction with Luke was amazing. That opening scene with Rose’s sister in the bomber was extremely moving for how little we knew, a “tone poem” if you will.
On the negative side, Finn’s arc was too subtly different from his Ep7 arc to make much difference. The logistics of the slow speed chase were a bit strained. We as the audience could have been clued into Holdo earlier than Poe was. The “your mom” joke didn’t land. The pacing (and I maintain pretty much only the pacing) of Canto Bight was weak. Then, it could have used a line or two of handwavium at various points to keep the Ackshully’s at bay: “The Raddus’ navicomputer locked onto the hyperdrive tracker.” Boom! Two birds with one stone.
It was still by far the best of the sequels and I’ll live and die on the hill that they’re all (yes, even THAT one) easier to watch than the acting and directing shitshow that was the prequels.
If it worked for you, more power to you, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind on this. But I can’t help myself when I see the apologetics for the “Luke ignited his light saber over a bad premonition scene”.
It’s not just “bad luck”, it’s bad writing. Luke didn’t just “wail on Vader” to get that “sweet hand vengeance”. He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the “threat” was sleeping.
The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.
I get that people can change over time, and not always for the better, but this is just hands down terrible character writing. Making such drastic changes in such an iconic character, without spending any time developing those changes, having those changes be directly counter to the lessons the character supposedly learned during his primary arc, and then using this unexplained change as the catalyst to the entire ST is awful writing.
And we are not even touching on his new found love of “THE SACRED TEXTS!”, or how he completely gives up and goes hermit mode.
I’ll give Rian credit for actually trying to innovate when it was his turn at bat, but his handling of Luke was honestly some of the most egregious examples of not understanding the characters you are writing, and having them pick up the idiot stick just to move the plot forward.
This really pisses me off and Disney have to carry that shit.
The jedi of the prequel/originals are wrong about emotions/feelings and Lukes prove then wrong when he saves Anakin. But because of this fuck up writing now Lukes is a dumb removed who got luck in the originals and is doomed to failed like the others jedis. We already saw that in the Boba Fett series when he gives up on Grogu because “too much attachment” come on dude.
In both cases, Luke was doing his calm thing, acting how he thought a Jedi should, and trying to do everything the right way. In both cases, the forces of darkness were pushing at him, and in both cases he comes close to giving in to save lives but stops himself. With Ben, or really with Palpatine/Snoke (still hate that this was the direction JJ went in TROS) the fear part only lasts for a moment, but with terrible consequences. Luke had mostly learned. He wasn’t the same person, but when confronted with the same pressures he’d struggled in the OT, he had a moment where it came close. I didn’t find it out of character at all, just a case of not becoming a magical, perfect person after your period of most intense growth.
I think there’s an argument that we simply shouldn’t bring back iconic, archetypal heroes like that, but once the choice is made, it’s deeply uninteresting to have to be saints. As a commentary on teaching and aging and how trying to live up to the legacy of the Jedi as he knew them, I thought TLJ Luke was solid.
The “sacred texts” showed us that he was never truly as disillusioned as he wanted to make out, and that there was still a kid somewhere inside that understood the power of legend and legacy, and it informed his decision to help how he did.
Different aspects of these movies hit people in different ways, and I’m not really thinking I’ll convince many people either, but I’ll push back on the notion that it was “just” bad writing. TLJ had a point of view and an agenda, and I came out of it refreshed and optimistic and was genuinely taken aback at the backlash.
Far be it from me to denounce some joy you found in the movie. We both obviosuly like StarWars (fellow geeks!), and if you liked TLJ’s take, you do you.
I agree whole heartedly that it would be uninteresting to make Luke “saint-like”. My issue isn’t with him having flaws and room for growth.
But I stand by the fact that his “mistake” in the ST runs directly contrary to the central theme of and lesson learned in his original arc. It may have been “in character” for ESB Luke, but by the end of RotJ, he had been shown that the goodness in a person can overcome the darkness, even in Vader.
And TLJ didn’t spend any time developing his actions, it just kinda said “well, his central arc wasn’t as impactful as it seemed”. Which I do believe is lazy/bad writing.
To blatantly plagerize Wikipedia.
Luke’s arc saw him learn to see and believe in the godness inside people, even when no one else could. Better writing would have pushed into his transformation, or found a previously unexplored flaw to examine. Having characters need to learn the same lessons over and over again is not only frustrating, it’s lazy writing and poor character development.
To that point, I once heard a youtuber recommend an alternative reason for Luke’s fall that would have leaned into this defining characteristic. They suggested that Luke still get the premonition regarding Ben, but believe the goodness in Ben could overcome the darkness. When Ben inevitably falls to the darkside, this could cause Luke to have a crisis of faith, fundamentally putting the plot in the same spot as the beginning of TLJ, but in a way that played off of Luke’s defining moment, as opposed to grinding against it.
Now you would have had to explain Ben’s turn to the darkside, but I think “my uncle attacked me” is also kind of a weak reason to betray his parents anyway (and kill his father, and attempt to kill his mother). And also fails to address his weird obsession with Vader, like that was just kind of glossed over.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I think the main issue is that Rian had to cover for the hermit Luke set up in the previous movie, which he did not write.
Nah the hermit Luke in the episode 7 uses white clothes like a hopeful figure. In the 8 he uses it for 1s, throws the lightsaber and promptly walks to a tree and changes into a grey miserable figure. Rian chooses it.
Sure, it could’ve gone a number of ways. Rian had to invent a compelling reason (ie. a conflict) why Luke would sequester himself leaving the galaxy to decay. Obviously since it’s fiction there were multiple solutions to that.
Definitely could have gone a lot of different ways, and many of them would have been much better imho. That being said, no doubt JJ handed him a writing hard mode plot thread.
Make an interesting, compelling, convincing reason why a classic hero’s journey arch type would call it quits. Not an easy thing to do. And it definitely contributed to the problems.
(though when Mark Hamil was telling Rian he fundamentally disagrees with Rian’s interpretation of the character, it’s hard to say he didn’t have fair warning)
If they had chosen to show the dreams, Luke struggling with it for ages and that scene as a last resort failure I could agree with you. Like he wake up everyday and each day he go closer to Kylo’s bed, the scene could be awesome. In the movie looks like the little shit Luke became a weak mind Jedi.
I’m with you 100% on everything you wrote here and I’ve had this argument with my brother countless times. He blames Rian Johnson for everything bad about the sequels and it’s bs.
Personally I think the biggest thing TLJ suffered from was the split focus between Poe and Finn. It made both stories rushed or weak in various places.
And for that I blame Disney. Did you know that Poe wasn’t even supposed to be a big character? He was supposed to be in the first scene of Ep7 and that’s it. But execs saw his performance and insisted they needed his character to play a bigger role. As such, we get attention split between Poe and Finn and both suffer for it.
I feel awful for John Boyega who was such a massive Star Wars fan, got the role of his dreams, and then effectively got sidelined for a pretty-boy.
If only Rian Johnson hasn’t sidelined Finn, yet another way he fucked up TLJ
To my knowledge it wasn’t his decision. It was Kathleen Kennedy. Poe was a favorite among kids and helped sell a boatload of X-Wing toys. He was seen as the “Han Solo of the sequels” and Disney execs all but forced Rian to give him screen time. They couldn’t really reduce Rey’s role so Finn got screwed
Agreed on TLJ, it was the only part of the new trilogy that dared do something different. It was quite flawed, but hey, it’s Star Wars.
People don’t remember how much backlash there was at even Empire Strikes Back! They said the story was incoherent. They even criticized the quintessential “I am your father” plot twist as being ridiculous (rightfully so). But that’s kind of what makes Star Wars what it is.
While it was not such a good movie, TLJ was an ok-ish Star Wars movie, and by far the best of the sequels.