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white western leftists will literally be like “yes I’m a socialist… I just hate everything that socialism has done in the world and I’ll gladly defend anti-communist efforts when they don’t directly effect me”
💯 % true!!
The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
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Yep, the man himself
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Cyber ghost the chad drawing out all the liberals for us to munch on
non-white people (insert racist slur), other country self determination, non-bombed buildings…
a massacre happened here lmao
Add them to the victims of communism and let’s make more (by educating them so they become communist)
🤯🔫
Yes, I would like one, uhhh, high speed rail network with a side of, uhhh, universal healthcare, hold the genocide and secret police, please.
Great idea! Hey USA, one HSR and Universal Healthcare? Instead of all that police and genocide plz thanks.
You are forgetting all the racism, xenophobia, homophobia and transphobia, white supremacy and Christian supremacy
I am.
Yes.
Killing landlords and fascists is not Genocide, and putting “secret” in front of “police” to make them scarier to you is childish. Of course I imagine you probably aren’t afraid of the regular police wherever you are, I wonder why.
What genocide?
Do you know the actual truth of the Holodomor or Xinjiang? Are you willing to know?
Comrades who are jumping straight to retorting are unwittingly making it seem like, “well yes, there was a genocide, but it was worth it.” Please do not allow any gap in our response that allows this interpretation. There has never been a genocide committed by a socialist country and we should make it clear we will not cede that atrociously false accusation.
Agreed. Unfortunately, they didn’t respond to me, so they probably won’t respond to you.
I’ll hijack this comment to try to summon Parenti quote bot
The quote
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
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Your contention is that Stalin committed no genocide? What do you call it, sparkling ethnic cleansing?
Do you call the Dust Bowl and Great Depression a genocide? Words have meaning.
You love to present overdramatic accusations when a famine occurs in a socialist country, and there’s usually only one big one.
Edit: If you’re talking about something else, please elaborate as to your specific allegation.
I asked you for a source earlier and you didn’t respond.Edit 2: I stand corrected; I conflated you with a different user, but I’d still appreciate your source. Unfortunately, due to the lateness of this edit, the instance admins have already banned you, so I probably won’t find this out.
You didn’t ask me for shit earlier. This is my first comment here.
The Dust Bowl and Great Depression is a thing that happened. What occurred in Stalin’s reign is a pattern, that included famines. Were the famines specifically engineered to kill off specific groups? I don’t know. But when you take a holistic view, and look at executions, gulag assignments, forced resettlement, deportations, and, yes, famines, there was very clearly a genocide under Stalin.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions. I don’t know if they were all with intent, but many definitely were.
I don’t understand how anyone can defend Stalin. I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
By trying to paint the Soviet Union as genocidal, you are denying the Holocaust. Simple as.
Woof, that’s some leap.
That’s right bark again you fucking lapdog for the establishment.
Prisoners in the United States jumped from 120,284 in 1923 to 210,418 in 1933. (Source (p. 210))
Executions increased to 197, the highest number in US history, in 1935. (Source)
The U.S. forcibly deported one million of its own citizens to Mexico in the 1930s. Source
Since you’re probably using an intentionally ridiculous US estimate, I’ll use an intentionally ridiculous Russian estimate and say that seven million people died from the Great Depression. This Russian estimate uses the same intentionally ridiculous methodology of the U.S. one.
Put together, why isn’t this enough to declare that a genocide happened in the U.S.?
Nice whataboutism. But fuck it, I’ll bite. A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Let’s play a game. I’m going to call it, “can we agree on some basic facts?”
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens. True or false?
funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Apologies for the confusing wording above. That’s because I was comparing two similar events to see if you would call it a genocide when the U.S. did it. If you did, I’d question your definition of genocide, but at least accept you’re applying it consistently.
I absolutely agree with you on that basic fact — the US has engaged in countless successful genocides against indigenous peoples.
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens.
False.
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
@[email protected], would you mind holding this lib up to scrutiny since the one on Hexbear didn’t respond?
It’s crazy - we all actually tend to agree on most things. We all sort of agree that the US government has committed atrocities, that wealth redistribution is what we should be striving for, that billionaires suck, that universal healthcare is good, all that good shit.
But they are stuck on the idea that their favorite governments can do no wrong.
“I agree that the U.S. is evil and has been the objective bad guy in every war it’s ever been in (and the US has almost never not been at war) but I believe the U.S. wholeheartedly in matters of foreign policy”
Of course they can do wrong. We acknowledge legitimate criticisms, but we’re going to refute slander against socialist governments.
I trust international investigation and evidence uncovered by reputable journalists.
If a country refuses to allow international investigators to do their job, that is a significant red flag.
If you compartmentalize counties in war to “good guys” and “bad guys”, you’re really going to claim that the US was the bad guy in WW2?
I apologize for the bad terminology, but I’ll stick with it to answer your question. Even in WW2, the Soviets were the “good guys” and the US only intervened when it was obvious the Soviets would win to stop a communist Europe.
Got it. In any war, communists are “good”, everyone else is “meh” or “bad”. It’s real telling that you’ll call the Soviets the “good guys” but not any other European nations.
If you’re accusing us of supporting “genocide and secret police,” you should provide sources to back up your claim.
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When someone says something like you did, I am reminded of this random Reddit commentor who, on the r/anarchism subreddit, answered “Nazi Germany could be considered to be an anarchist revolution in nature” because, according to them, anarchist revolutions happen (regardless of your intent) anytime you revolt against authority or the established system, no matter what you want out of it or how it turns out, you’re an anarchist.
You remind me of that person, bless.
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China and DPRK are not socialist. They are fascist states in a costume of socialism
You know “Fascist” actually means something and isn’t just a synonym of “place I don’t like”
cringe
Because almost all of them (not Marx) are authoritarian power hungry dictators/dictatorships? Seriously… Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country? Wtf are they on? Did the USSR have queer rights? What about Vietnam? NORTH KOREA!!! Animals have better rights there. OP is either a fourteen year old, terminally on discord, bullied dude. If that is the case, I’m sorry. Have been there… However, if this is not the case, then OP is just extremely extremely stupid.
East Germany deserves to be commended for their efforts to Denazify their territories, in Blackshirts and Reds, Parenti mentioned that they got rid of 80% of the judges in East Germany for their Nazi ties. And they did actually have decent LGBTQ rights
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country?
Yes, and the majority of East Germans agree.
Why have you linked an article from fkin 2009 lmao. Did you look up “East Germans love East Germany” and link the first article that you saw? What poll is this article referring to? Pewresearch (2019) say something very different. According to their surveys, East Germans have reported a dramatic rise in quality of life post 1991.
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? … And you call others children?
Good news everyone, US imperialism is no more: you can marry your partner! (Terms and conditions apply)
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? Well no. Many more things. Queer rights are just one of these parameters that are easily visible in my opinion. Let’s talk about freedom of speech however. I can access the internet in any way that I want in Canada. Can I do that in China? Nope! Say hello to the great firewall! I can protest the government (mostly) in western countries. When I do that in China, I get run over by tanks. Tiananmen Square massacre much? Oh… is that western propaganda too now? I can make fun of Biden, Trudeau, Trump, etc. Can I do that in China?
Being a socialist doesn’t mean I have to glorify any of the former/present socialist countries and ignore their problems (which there are A LOT of).
It don’t mean you have to uncritically swallow state department propaganda either but here we are. You seem like the kind of socialist who wants free healthcare built on the backs of immigrant workers but don’t care when your country bombs hospitals in Pakistan or Syria.
Well, I’m an immigrant of color myself. Also, I vehemently oppose the military actions of my country in the middle east. I also oppose Russian aggression in Ukraine for the same reason. Somehow, “socialists” here only agree with me on the middle east part.
Im a dude, but i fucking hate Hitler.
I’m white, but Ted Bundy was a bit of a bad person.
I played Sonic as a kid, but i thinking Kris Chan fucking their senile mom is a little fucked up.
That is such an insane rhetoric. I’m a supporter of democratic socialism, but that doesn’t mean I support all branches and types of socialism. Moresohowever, I don’t like what is also included in these countries governments. I can fully say some of these countries I absolutely do not support, I do think they are doing things right on the socialism part.
I’ll bite. What do you not like about existing socialist states?
So you defend imperialist capitalist states. Go back to your Fox News with that bullshit